Deletion of pointless replies! (now locked)

[ericmark]

Anybody seen it?

No I haven't I suppose it's in the Wiki section which we know no body reads unless re-directed there.

Found This thread but seems picture has gone. Seems inside there was a choke and transformer.

 

[JohnW2]

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mod's note .... allso, please see the footing of this post.

What "footing"? Even if you mean 'Footer', I don't see one.

Kind Regards, John


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mod's note:
Look again
Last edited by a moderator (time/date)
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[ban-all-sheds]

The wiki would be no good -

1. You need to register specially for posting in it.
2. Not structured for discussions.
3. Anyone with posting rights there can delete or edit anything.

 

[JohnW2]

Anybody seen it?

No, but what if they have? The subject has already been done to several deaths, and I'm sure that none of us have anything new to say. I certainly don't.

Even Winston would probably not be all that interested in such a thread. Just like you (in relation to other matters) he feels that some things/education are so important that he must repeat his correction/education over and over again every single time the 'need' (opportunity?) arises in a new thread, with a (partially) new audience.

Kind Regards, John.

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mod's note
//www.diynot.com/diy/threads/thread-for-arguing-about-transformers.476831/
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[ericmark]

I did look at electrical definitions page in wiki.
SELV is covered with a link to Wikipedia, but most the other items which we seem to have arguments about are missing.
Electronic Transformer.
Pulse Width Modulated.
Switch Mode.
Wire wound ballast.
Electronic ballast.
Toroidal Transformer.
Driver.
I am sure there are many more.
The Wiki section was rather good, but when the forum was revamped many of the things disappeared. Click on many and it says

This article does not exist yet. You are unable to add articles to the wiki. sorry!

At a quick glance one thinks it's all explained, until you actually click on the subject. In fact first 11 definitions are yet to be added, why the heading was put there I don't know? Since most are in BS7671 it would not really be hard to add them.

Question is they were there before the upgrade, why were they not replaced? I am sure if I was a DIY guy and first 11 are blank, I would not continue going through the list.

 

[JohnW2]

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mod's note
//www.diynot.com/diy/threads/thread-for-arguing-about-transformers.476831/
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I'm not sure what you think has been achieved by moving a collection of posts to the 'Joke Archive' of GD. It's not a place I visit, or ever intend to visit, and I suspect the same is true of many others.

As I recently wrote, I imagine that none of the regulars here, probably including winston himself, want to discuss the matter further amongst ourselves - not the least because none of us has anything new to say. The issue is that winston feels the need to raise the issue whenever a member, quite often a brand new member, uses what he feels is incorrect terminology, in some new thread. If you're happy with him doing that (including the spin-off consequences that often occur) then fair enough. If you aren't happy, you should surely deal with ('eradicate') the issue as soon as it arises in any new thread? ... and the same as regards other members who repeatedly raise their own pet issues (often on a virtually 'boiler plate' basis) - again often directed at very new members.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I see, in the past, instead of deleting a pointless post, it was moved into the joke section! I did a search for "Electronic Transformers" and this did not come up in the list. So it is unlikely to be read. At least by anyone wanting to find out about them.

I was careful when I replied to the thread in question not to call any poster wrong or argue about the definitions, but tried to write an explanation about what it was all about. I am not saying I got it write or wrong, but I felt at the time some reasonable explanation was required. To have the mod's call the pointless is a slap in the face, it does not matter if it is or is not called an electronic transformer, what matters is the mod's have called my post pointless, and seem to think that was a reasonable explanation for deleting the post.

"Thread lost due to deleted posts" would have been acceptable, pointless reply is a best rude, and I feel completely uncalled for. However it seems the mod's don't agree, so good bye.

 

[JohnW2]

... tried to write an explanation about what it was all about. I am not saying I got it write or wrong, but I felt at the time some reasonable explanation was required. To have the mod's call the pointless is a slap in the face, it does not matter if it is or is not called an electronic transformer, what matters is the mod's have called my post pointless, ....

I think you are probably taken this unnecessarily personally. I don't think that it was being suggested that your post, per se, was 'pointless', but, rather, that it was pointless for the exactly same discussion/argument to be taking place for the umpteenth time. Even the "reasonable explanations", which were fair enough the first few times, gain nothing by endless repetition. Yours was by no means the only post to be deleted - some of mine quite probably went as well.

It's no secret that I largely agree with winston, but I certainly don't agree with 'going on and on about it'. Nor do I believe that that 'going on and on' will achieve anything and, although he regards it as 'essential education' he is probably actually doing a disservice to members of this DIY forum - since if he educates them into going into consumer retail outlets and asking for a switch mode power supply for their lights, in many/most cases the person they're talking to won't have a clue what they are talking about!

Kind Regards, John

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Don't worry we are all humans and humans are often forgetful and make mistakes, so forgive and forget, and enjoy life and here is a little cheerup for you tensed guys.

she is wearing a transformer by the way.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It's no secret that I largely agree with winston

OK - then can you explain how if the makers stop calling their products "electronic transformers" and use the term "switch mode power supply" instead, all of the problems which some people think arise because the average person doesn't understand the differences between the behaviour of magnetic transformers and "electronic" ones will go away?

 

[bernardgreen]

The problems of flickery lighting and strange behaviour of lamps will not go away because almost all of these problems are caused by ignorant sales and marketting people creating ( or encouraging others to create ) mixtures of dimmers, power supplies and drivers that are not compatible with each other.

The term electronic transformer is here to stay. ( unless there is a law introduced to make it illegal ). What is needed is some way to educate people that an electronic transformer has to be chosen carefully to be compatible with the other devices.

 

[JohnW2]

OK - then can you explain how if the makers stop calling their products "electronic transformers" and use the term "switch mode power supply" instead ....

The issue is not about makers who use the term "electronic transformer" (which is not all that ambiguous) but, rather, those who call them just "transformers".

Whether or not people understand the difference between wirewound and "electronic" transformers, and the implications thereof, is a totally different matter, regardless of what words are used.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The issue is not about makers who use the term "electronic transformer"

It is for some, including those with whom you agree on this issue.

(which is not all that ambiguous) but, rather, those who call them just "transformers".

Another "issue" whose significance I fail to understand. Magnetic transformer, current transformer, autotransformer ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer#Types ...

There are many modifiers which can go before "transformer", and they may or may not be important depending on what type of transformer it is and what type is needed. But they are all "transformers", and the context might make it clear what type is meant, or it might make it irrelevant (i.e. it might not matter).

As long as one drops the insistence that it can only mean something which only uses some form of magnetic induction to do its job of changing voltage without changing frequency, then "electronic transformer" is a perfectly valid term, and you seem to agree with that.

So, does it matter if someone omits the modifier when the context is a 12V supply for lights?

Whether or not people understand the difference between wirewound and "electronic" transformers, and the implications thereof, is a totally different matter, regardless of what words are used.

Exactly.

That the differences might well be significant can't be denied. Retrofit LED lamps are the latest example where they are, but they've also always been present regarding dimmer switches.

I have some sympathy with the idea that people should be encouraged to use the more specific term in order to raise awareness that there are differences, but I don't think that doing that would help them understand what the differences are, or why they might matter to them, nor do I think that if everybody used the term "switch mode power supply" instead then they would have a better understanding.

I have zero sympathy with the idea that there are no such things as "electronic transformers".


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Note to all, esp. the Mods - as soon as I've made a version of this with more quotes to get the history in, I'll move it to the dedicated topic, as requested. Lunch will be happening first, though.

 

[JohnW2]

Another "issue" whose significance I fail to understand. Magnetic transformer, current transformer, autotransformer ... There are many modifiers which can go before "transformer", and they may or may not be important depending on what type of transformer it is and what type is needed. But they are all "transformers", and the context might make it clear what type is meant, or it might make it irrelevant (i.e. it might not matter). ... As long as one drops the insistence that it can only mean something which only uses some form of magnetic induction to do its job of changing voltage without changing frequency, then "electronic transformer" is a perfectly valid term, and you seem to agree with that.

I would probably have preferred them to come up with a new word or phrase but, yes, particularly given that history cannot be reversed, I am relatively happy when the qualifier "electronic" is included.

However, you have hit one nail on the head. Few, if any, of these "electronic transformers actually do "change voltage without changing frequency" - indeed, some have a DC, or quasi-DC output.

So, does it matter if someone omits the modifier when the context is a 12V supply for lights?

As I recently wrote to bernard, it certainly could matter if one was dealing with an 'LED lamp' which was designed for 50/60Hz (only) and utilised a series capacitor for current limiting. Connecting HF AC to that could well kill it.

I have some sympathy with the idea that people should be encouraged to use the more specific term in order to raise awareness that there are differences, but I don't think that doing that would help them understand what the differences are, or why they might matter to them, nor do I think that if everybody used the term "switch mode power supply" instead then they would have a better understanding.

Agreed. As I said, an understanding of the differences, and their relevance, is nothing to do with the words used - although I suppose that use of specific terms at least warns people that there may be important differences.

Note to all, esp. the Mods - as soon as I've made a version of this with more quotes to get the history in, I'll move it to the dedicated topic, as requested.

If you're talking about that dusty corner of GD, then I, for one, won't see it, and I suspect the same would be true of many others.

Kind Regards, John

 

[winston1]

Another "issue" whose significance I fail to understand. Magnetic transformer, current transformer, autotransformer ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer#Types ...

There are many modifiers which can go before "transformer", and they may or may not be important depending on what type of transformer it is and what type is needed. But they are all "transformers", and the context might make it clear what type is meant, or it might make it irrelevant (i.e. it might not matter).

They are all transformers with one exception, the SMPTs you wrongly refer to as electronic transformers.
The Wikipedia article doesn't mention it either which ought to tell you something.