Deletion of pointless replies! (now locked)

[Mikefromlondon]

This is why the term LED Drivers is more appropriate for such devices, let us not forget, at the moment LED lighting is relatively new, so manufacturer's have not all come together to unify a standard, as continuing research is finding new and improved LEDs and improving efficiencies, so imagine if a new LED was developed that used only 1mA current and provided a very high efficiency, and if someone then used an LED Driver that was designed to provide 100mA, it would most certainly blow the HE LED at 100 times more current.

So yes, this is why it would make sense to develop power supplies (LED Drivers) to run LED lighting ironing out all the pitfalls of compatibility issues between various manufacturers and different types of LED chips used, with different parameters.

They are all transformers with one exception, the SMPTs you wrongly refer to as electronic transformers.
The Wikipedia article doesn't mention it either which ought to tell you something.

However, it is now generally accepted an LED lighting power supply is called Electronic Transformer or an LED driver, even if it is not using a power transformer, but a switched mode power supply. Wikipedia doesn't have to say it and perhaps it has not been updated.

 

[JohnW2]

This is why the term LED Drivers is more appropriate for such devices...

Even that is not straightforward. For a start, some people seem to reserve "LED driver" for constant-current sources, something very rarely used/needed in domestic situations. The ('constant'-voltage) ones generally available to consumers are not really 'LED drivers' but, rather, 'LED lamp drivers', since the lamps/bulbs contain the current-controlling circuitry.

... so imagine if a new LED was developed that used only 1mA current and provided a very high efficiency, and if someone then used an LED Driver that was designed to provide 100mA, it would most certainly blow the HE LED at 100 times more current.

Only if it were a constant-current driver - which, as I said, is very rarely seen domestically. If it were one of the (usual) 'constant-voltage' ones, and the lamp were designed for such a source, then the 100mA lamp would draw 100mA from that source, and the 1mA lamp would draw 1mA from that same source - so no bangs!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Retro-fit LV lamps are going to contain the smallest, cheapest, nastiest set of components which the maker can get into the package to make them work at LV. (I say "going to" rather than "might" because I know it would be futile for a maker to put in better ones and hope to succeed in charging a higher price on the basis of better quality).

Retro-fit ELV ones might work with the existing ELV supply/ies, or they might not. A mix'n'match collection of lamps in the same room might work differently. They might appear to work but actually are being damaged and will fail prematurely. A room with different types or even different makes of supply might not be capable of being fitted out with identical lamps, or even with ones which behave identically. And even if all is OK on Day 1, these issues could rise up and bite someone down the line when they need to replace a failed lamp.

All in all I stand by the advice I've always given - either install integrated LED luminaires, or go for a properly designed integrated system of an external LED supply and lights, avoid just replacing incandescent lamps with LED ones.

 

[JohnW2]

All in all I stand by the advice I've always given - either install integrated LED luminaires, or go for a properly designed integrated system of an external LED supply and lights, avoid just replacing incandescent lamps with LED ones.

I agree. As I recently wrote, lighting used to be so simple/straightforward. However, we now have a situation in which there are so many compatibility issues (with incomparability resulting in the lights not working properly, or at all) that I think that the advice you give is probably the only (fairly) safe way to go. If one 'mixes and matches' (on the basis of some sensible informed decisions), one might well be lucky, but not necessarily.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I wonder if things are different in the commercial environment, with makers/products targeted at that?

If Mr. J. Public replaces a handful, or few dozen, lamps in his home and then in a few years finds he has to replace several because one has failed, or he has to replace more than one ELV supply because one has failed, etc, he'd find it a bit of a pain. If he invested in an integrated system, similar all-or-nothing problems could arise in Mikefromlondon's scenario.

With a hotel or other large building with thousands of lights it would be an utter nightmare.

I wonder if any manufacturers are giving guarantees of product longevity, backwards compatibility etc?

 

[JohnD]

There are about 60 million people in the UK whose homes have 240v BC lampholders. Sometimes SES or ES. They know how to use them and have no need to go onto web forums asking how to get them out.

Lamps to fit can be bought on any High Street or supermart. Running costs are negligible and LED versions are now about as cheap as CFLs. They last for years.

Why would anyone bother with weird designs and transformers, unless for some reason they want a hard life? The minority interest lighting fashion will have moved on next time they want a replacement for their weird design

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Note to all, esp. the Mods - as soon as I've made a version of this with more quotes to get the history in, I'll move it to the dedicated topic, as requested. Lunch will be happening first, though.

If you're talking about that dusty corner of GD, then I, for one, won't see it, and I suspect the same would be true of many others.

Oh well...

 

[EFLImpudence]

This is why the term LED Drivers

Sorry Mike, they're not a drivers.

A driver is a man (oops, I'd better say person these days) who moves cattle.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

They last for years.

Not all.

Why would anyone bother with weird designs

IHANI.

Now let me ask you a question in return, which has just as much relevance.:

Why would anyone bother with {insert any random topic you like which has not been mentioned in the topic and which you have decided to invent}?

Here are a few suggestions, just to get your creative juices flowing:

{tinned potatoes}
{plastic daffodils in their front garden}
{watching Celebrity Big Brother}​

and transformers, unless for some reason they want a hard life?

Or it they want something properly designed?

The minority interest lighting fashion will have moved on next time they want a replacement for their weird design

Could the minority interest in this thread move on now, please? Nothing to see here for people who want to invent things out of the blue and then moan about what they've invented.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Sorry Mike, they're not a drivers.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Ooh. I was wrong. I apologise.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

They are all transformers with one exception, the SMPTs you wrongly refer to as electronic transformers.

What on earth is wrong with you Winston?

Why are you driven to repeat this untruth over and over and over again?

Of course there are SMPSs which are called electronic transformers.

AND YOU KNOW *)"*$^$*(#@ WELL THAT THERE ARE.

You may not like the fact, but your dislike does not alter the fact.

The Wikipedia article doesn't mention it either which ought to tell you something.

It tells me that it is incomplete.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Ooh. I was wrong. I apologise.

If only more people were like you.

 

[JohnW2]

With a hotel or other large building with thousands of lights it would be an utter nightmare.

Indeed - if they wanted to maintain consistency throughout their installation/whatever.

I wonder if any manufacturers are giving guarantees of product longevity, backwards compatibility etc?

I don't know what happens in the commercial world but I somehow doubt it, particularly if (as above) there is desire to maintain consistency. Certainly in terms of the consumer market, manufacturers seem to change their products every five minutes, often with at least small changes in appearance - sometimes to the extent that it's sometimes difficult to buy products which are not already 'discontinued' as far as the manufacturer is concerned. That's one reason why I don't think that very long warranties are necessary as useful as they might sound.

Kind Regards, John

 

[winston1]

What on earth is wrong with you Winston?

Why are you driven to repeat this untruth over and over and over again?

Of course there are SMPSs which are called electronic transformers.

Because it is NOT untrue and you cannot get your head round this fact.

Referring to SMPTs as "electronic transformers is wrong".
They don't conform to any transformer specs.
They don't transform AC without changing the frequency.
They cannot be reversed and work.