DIY rewiring and Building control

[mattylad]

I have just rung Rossendale council over this.
They seem to have little knowledge over what is required and just
keep saying that they recommend you get a competent person to do it.

They also said there was a sliding scale of charges dependant upon the cost
of the works! so the more it costs me to get it done, the more they charge me????
(at under £1k it would be £110 )

So as a DIY'r we are required to inform BC before we start the work.
Exactly what information are we required to give them?
Should it contain schematics of the proposed works?
(perhaps this question deserves a thread of its own?)

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I have just rung Rossendale council over this.
They seem to have little knowledge over what is required and just
keep saying that they recommend you get a competent person to do it.

They are saying that because of their lack of knowledge - they just want a quiet life.

They also said there was a sliding scale of charges dependant upon the cost
of the works! so the more it costs me to get it done, the more they charge me????

BC fees have always been structured that way, although the finer detail varies from council to council.

So as a DIY'r we are required to inform BC before we start the work.
Exactly what information are we required to give them?
Should it contain schematics of the proposed works?

I'd say ask them, but they wouldn't know. A schematic seems overkill - I would have thought a written description would do, at a fairly high level, e.g. "installation of new circuit for electric shower", or "wiring associated with extension - addition of lighting points and switches to existing lighting circuit, extension of ring final socket circuit, provision of new circuits in kitchen for cooker and appliances", that sort of thing?

 

[Veglen]

Taken from the Building Regulations & Planning website.

“There have been reports that some local authorities are asking householders to have electrical installation work inspected, tested and certificated by someone other than the person carrying out the work. Section 33(2) of the Building Act 1984 (WHICH WOULD give power to local authorities to require persons carrying out building work to carry out such reasonable tests, at the person's expense, of or in connection with the work for the purpose of enabling local authorities to ascertain whether the work complies with the requirements of the Regulations) HAS NOT BEEN COMMENCED! This means in our opinion that local authorities do not have the power to require householders to retain an electrician to test and certificate the work in accordance with BS 7671. Local authorities which have adopted such a practice should discontinue it immediately.”

You see, I think this statement is key!

You should direct the lady at your LABC to this statement and ask has Section 33(2) of the Building Act 1984 changed? If not, what part of this statement does she find difficult to understand?

V

 

[mattylad]

Cheers for that Veglen.

So a written description of all proposed works is adequate.
Although I dare say that the proposed works can change, just as householders change their minds as jobs are being done.

So we print out a detailed description of proposed works, including details of all testing etc to be done & hand that in with our application & fee.
Thats meeting "part P" as far as "notifying" goes?

What then are the BC "required" to do/provide us with?

 

[pompeygit]

They issue a completion certificate once they have received the (EIC)test certificates which have been completed by a 'competent person'

 

[mattylad]

They issue a completion certificate once they have received the (EIC)test certificates which have been completed by a 'competent person'

Where does it say that "we" have to provide the test certificates?
Thats not what BAS has suggested?

 

[pompeygit]

Well I suppose you have to ask your council to test and provide certs to BS7671. Testing is carried out in stages.......some before work commences.....some during erection.........some on completion.....some after juicing up the circuit. Somebody has to do the tests in order to prove compliance. Ask your council if they will do the tests and fill in the forms. They probably have a retained subbie to do this.

Building Control do not directly employ sparks for this purpose. They may levy increased charges on you for this service though. Ring 'em and see

 

[mattylad]

They may levy increased charges on you for this service though.

However AFAIK (and BAS) the law says otherwise, if they want to test they are welcome to but at a cost to them & not the householder.

Which is part of the point, the requirement is on us DIY'rs to "notify" our Building Control dept.
Where is the requirement that it "must" be tested?
Where is the requirement that any test "must" be done only by a competent person?
(if there is one, is that also saying that a non qualified person is not allowed to test their own stuff in which case it should remain untested?)

I can only see some that says it "may"need testing.

Even though it is in the householders best interests to get work tested
and that test to be done by a competent person, where is that required by law?

(edited a couple of times)

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Where does it say that "we" have to provide the test certificates?

It doesn't.

A DIYer can't, really, unless he is above averagely skilled, and has access to test equipment which is not run-of-the-mill DIY stuff.

Nor does the law require him to, and the whole point of notification, and paying a fee, is that LABC come and check that the work is safe etc. They will carry out whatever tests they feel they need to do, and if they're happy then they will issue a completion certificate.

Well I suppose you have to ask your council to test and provide certs to BS7671.

That's not their job. If you want an EIC it's your responsibility to issue one or engage the services of someone to issue one.

Testing is carried out in stages.......some before work commences.....some during erection.........some on completion.....some after juicing up the circuit. Somebody has to do the tests in order to prove compliance.

You'll be very unlikely to get more than two vists - they sure as hell won't come out and do tests before you start work. If you want that done then it's your responsibility....

Ask your council if they will do the tests and fill in the forms. They probably have a retained subbie to do this.

Building Control do not directly employ sparks for this purpose. They may levy increased charges on you for this service though. Ring 'em and see

If you want them, via their subcontractor, to provide a service over and above what the standard fee pays for, e.g. issuing an EIC, then even if they were willing (I would guess not) then you would have to pay.

If all you want is for them, via their subcontractor if that is the way they have chosen to work, to provide the service that the standard fee pays for, i.e. checking and then issuing a Building Regulations completion certificate then they cannot make you pay any extra.

However AFAIK (and BAS) the law says otherwise, if they want to test they are welcome to but at a cost to them & not the householder.

Yup.

Which is part of the point, the requirement is on us DIY'rs to "notify" our Building Control dept.
Where is the requirement that it "must" be tested?

There isn't one - LABC have considerable freedom in what they do to ensure that the Building Regulations are complied with, but they'd be pretty negligent (IMO) if they didn't test.

Where is the requirement that any test "must" be done only by a competent person?

There isn't one, but LABC would be pretty negligent (IMO) if they subbed the testing to somebody who wasn't competent...

(if there is one, is that also saying that a non qualified person is not allowed to test their own stuff in which case it should remain untested?)

Anybody may test their own work, but the value that others will place on the results is open to debate.

Even though it is in the householders best interests to get work tested
and that test to be done by a competent person, where is that required by law?

It isn't.

The first version of Part P did require the work to be tested, but they dropped that.

 

[BS3036]

I'm not sure everyone here has actually read this...

From Part P:

Certification of notifiable work
...
c. Where installers are not qualified to complete BS7671 completion certificates

1.24 Where such installers (who may be contractors or DIYers) carry out notifiable electrical work, the building control body must be notified before the work starts. Where the work is necessary because of an emergency the building control body should be notified as soon as possible. The building control body then becomes responsible for making sure that the work is safe and complies with all relevant requirements in the building regulations.

1.25 The amount of inspection and testing needed is for the building control body to decide, based on the nature and extent of the electrical work. For relatively simple notifiable jobs, such as adding a socket-outlet to a kitchen circuit, the inspection and testing requirements will be minimal. For a house re-wire, a full set of inspections and tests may need to be carried out.

1.26 The building control body may choose to carry out the inspection and testing itself, or to contract out some or all of the work to a specialist body which will then carry out the work on its behalf. Building control bodies will carry out the necessary inspection and testing at their expense, not at the householders' expense.

1.27 A building control body will not issue a BS 7671 installation certificate (as these can only be issued by those carrying out the work), but only a Building Regulations completion certificate (the local authority) or a final certificate (an approved inspector).

As far as it goes it couldn't be clearer. However it leaves ambiguous the question as to whether you have to make it clear when notifying that you will be DIYing, and whether they can charge a larger fee for notifying in this case. And what happens if your plans submission for say an extension didn't mention that you would be DIYing.

Pass...

 

[mattylad]

What are you saying BS3036, I cant quite make it out?

Are you agreeing that there is no requirement on DIY'rs to provide an EIC or disagreeing?

(I'm getting into all your abbreviations now )

My interpretation of those sections:
1.24 = I'm not qualified so I must inform LABC.
1.25 = LABC are to decide what/how much needs testing not me.
1.26 = LABC "may" choose to test themselves, if they do - they pay for it not me.
1.27 = They will not give me a BS7671, but only a BRCC/FC


So assuming
I inform them (1.24)
they decide they want to test stuff (1.25)
I say "if you want to test - you pay for it & do it" (1.26)
they then have to decide if they do want to test or just issue me a final certificate (not a BS7671).

Because the way I see it, they have little choice, they have the opportunity to test or not, if they test & it fails - I remedy. if they test & it passes they must provide BRCC/FC ?

What if they decide not to test, are they then required to issue the BRCC/FC ?

 

[Veglen]

Where is the requirement that it "must" be tested?
Where is the requirement that any test "must" be done only by a competent person?
(if there is one, is that also saying that a non qualified person is not allowed to test their own stuff in which case it should remain untested?)

I can only see some that says it "may"need testing.

This is all explained in the BS7671 and that's why the Building Regs suggest you work to these standards.

This email address may Help.

[email protected]

This is the Building Regulations Helpline address. They used to have a telephone number but it no longer receives calls.

I wonder why

V

 

[ban-all-sheds]

However it leaves ambiguous the question as to whether you have to make it clear when notifying that you will be DIYing, and whether they can charge a larger fee for notifying in this case.

I guess that would depend on what they say in their published scale of charges - if they don't say that a higher fee is payable, then it isn't. I know that some LABCs do charge different rates for qualified/unqualified people, which I guess is fair enough, and then it's up to the person submitting the notification to make it clear which fee scale applies to him.

And what happens if your plans submission for say an extension didn't mention that you would be DIYing.

AFAIK when you submit an application you have to say how you intend to comply with the Building Regs, so in the case of an extension you'd say what the spec of the walls will be, the ventilation, the floors, the drainage etc, probably referencing Robust Details where appropriate, and so on. So surely you would have to say how you intend to comply with Part P?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

My interpretation of those sections:
1.24 = I'm not qualified so I must inform LABC.
1.25 = LABC are to decide what/how much needs testing not me.
1.26 = LABC "may" choose to test themselves, if they do - they pay for it not me.
1.27 = They will not give me a BS7671, but only a BRCC/FC

Sounds good to me.

So assuming
I inform them (1.24)
they decide they want to test stuff (1.25)
I say "if you want to test - you pay for it & do it" (1.26)
they then have to decide if they do want to test or just issue me a final certificate (not a BS7671).

Because the way I see it, they have little choice, they have the opportunity to test or not, if they test & it fails - I remedy. if they test & it passes they must provide BRCC/FC ?

Ditto.

What if they decide not to test, are they then required to issue the BRCC/FC ?

I guess they must be.

It would be outrageous, and probably open to court action, if they took your money and then refused to issue you a completion certificate because they chose not to check if you'd done the work properly.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Where is the requirement that it "must" be tested?
Where is the requirement that any test "must" be done only by a competent person?
(if there is one, is that also saying that a non qualified person is not allowed to test their own stuff in which case it should remain untested?)

I can only see some that says it "may"need testing.

This is all explained in the BS7671 and that's why the Building Regs suggest you work to these standards.

BS 7671 does not define "competent" or "qualified".

It does, as I said earlier, define requirements for testing etc, which is why people who are not able to test and certify their work may come unstuck if they've told the council that the work will be tested and certified.

Which is what they are doing, (probably unwittingly) when they simply say that the work will be done in compliance with BS7671.

Far better to say that they intend to comply with Part P by following the provisions laid down in Chapters x,y,z etc of BS 7671, carefully omitting the ones that require testing and certification....

This is the Building Regulations Helpline address.

What do you mean "the" Building Regulations helpline address?

Faber Maunsell are an international consultancy firm, with expertise in building, transport and environmental services, and it doesn't look as if they have much experience of UK domestic wiring issues...