you could buy a replacement dgu tomorrow and it might last 20 years. firms just wont guarantee them that long. i replaced about 14 dgu's in my fathers house almost 12 years ago. now i made and fitted them myself and they are still going strong. the reason i made them myself is that i wouldn't trust the morons who were making dgu's at my firm at the time to do it correctly.
Double glazing misting problem - but not all the time.....
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Please DONT close this thread. With respect, If it bores some readers, they don't have to continue reading it.
It is NOT about a business idea, although that is what some posters insist on referring to.
And if it appears critical of the after market for replacement DG units, that's good isn't? If it exposes/informs, about poor standards in quality and construction, misconception and mis-information.
It began (not by me) about the possility of preventing the failure of hitherto unfailed dg sealed units, if you read the first couple of threads. It then became a discussion about the possibility of repairing DG units, and has now moved on (just as most threads do), in a quitle logical way, to in this case, the relability and methods of construction, pertaining to the longevity of replacement DG units when the need arises due to condensation in a failed unit(s).
The most recent poster, Bowie77, has said that he used to work in the manufacture of DG units and had to make his own because he couldn't trust colleagues to do them properly.
So my recent questions about why a dg unit lasts only 5 years according to warranty, is a valid one, and is quite possiby answered by Bowie77.
Many, if not most readers of this thread, will already own a DG window system. It's probable that this will interest them too. Since they too will eventually have to replace their failed units. They too will be faced with buying a product that might last 3, 5 or 15 years, with no way of knowing in advance which is likely.
So its now relevant and pertinent to ask I think, if anyone knows of a firm making DG units that DOES have sufficient confidence in their product, employees, and practices, to offer a warranty longer than 5 years?
As a P.S to this post, I might also add, that I keep referring to the FACT that I have "fixed" at least 2 units, and this is consistantly ignored. Nobody (very few) it seems, want to discuss the possibility that units can be fixed and prevented from misiting
Please DONT close this thread. With respect, If it bores some readers, they don't have to continue reading it.
It is NOT about a business idea, although that is what some posters insist on referring to.
And if it appears critical of the after market for replacement DG units, that's good isn't? If it exposes/informs, about poor standards in quality and construction, misconception and mis-information.
It began (not by me) about the possility of preventing the failure of hitherto unfailed dg sealed units, if you read the first couple of threads. It then became a discussion about the possibility of repairing DG units, and has now moved on (just as most threads do), in a quitle logical way, to in this case, the relability and methods of construction, pertaining to the longevity of replacement DG units when the need arises due to condensation in a failed unit(s).
The most recent poster, Bowie77, has said that he used to work in the manufacture of DG units and had to make his own because he couldn't trust colleagues to do them properly.
So my recent questions about why a dg unit lasts only 5 years according to warranty, is a valid one, and is quite possiby answered by Bowie77.
Many, if not most readers of this thread, will already own a DG window system. It's probable that this will interest them too. Since they too will eventually have to replace their failed units. They too will be faced with buying a product that might last 3, 5 or 15 years, with no way of knowing in advance which is likely.
So its now relevant and pertinent to ask I think, if anyone knows of a firm making DG units that DOES have sufficient confidence in their product, employees, and practices, to offer a warranty longer than 5 years?
As a P.S to this post, I might also add, that I keep referring to the FACT that I have "fixed" at least 2 units, and this is consistantly ignored. Nobody (very few) it seems, want to discuss the possibility that units can be fixed and prevented from misiting
With respect slpj you haven't "fixed" anything........................YET! Come back in 5 years time and tell us your units are still going strong until then you've just carried out remedial/temporary repairs, something you'd try if you were selling a house and didn't need the expense.
Now, if you were offering this service completely free of charge and hence no guarantee i might (if i were a customer) consider it otherwise i'd sooner bite the bullet, buy a new dgu and take my chance with the guarantee, sorry!
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if you want to repair a broken down or "misted" dgu the best way is this.
1/ carefully split apart the two panes of glass with a stanley knife. slicing
where the glass meets the spacer bar. (be very carefull and take your time. you will need to slice each edge a number of times)
2/ clean all the egdes of the glass to remove all the old sealant and throw away the old spacer bar.
3/ take the two panes of glass to a local firm and ask them to re-seal them together to the thickness you require.
i have done this many times especially with toughened glass and decrotive glass. most firms only charge a couple of quid.
1/ carefully split apart the two panes of glass with a stanley knife. slicing
where the glass meets the spacer bar. (be very carefull and take your time. you will need to slice each edge a number of times)
2/ clean all the egdes of the glass to remove all the old sealant and throw away the old spacer bar.
3/ take the two panes of glass to a local firm and ask them to re-seal them together to the thickness you require.
i have done this many times especially with toughened glass and decrotive glass. most firms only charge a couple of quid.
Thank you bowie77. That's very helpful. I dont think you could have put it any clearer. Failed DG units can be repaired, and very cheaply too.
Can this also be done with a leaded unit, assuming all the lead is intact, not damaged by water etc?
Also, at the very beginning of this thread,
He was never given an answer, only told units couldn't be repaired. But as you have confirmed that they can be repaired, I'll ask his original question again, but slightly differently.
Do you know what sealant could be used to go around the edges of the unit to improve/repair the seal, on a unit where there is no water damage, and only the first minimal signs of misting, or indeed no misting at all?
If units are over say 15 to 20 years old, and most are still fine, I will assume they must be close to "breaking down". But as units are fairly easy to take out and put back in again, I want to take out all of my own and re-seal/improve the seal on them prior to them showing any signs of misting. This would greatly extend the life of the units I already have.
The 2 units I already took out and seem to have dried out, are still completely mist free (they were previously both misted). I would like to re-seal these too, to prevent any more water re-entering them. I just need to know the correct sealant to use and where to buy it.
Can this also be done with a leaded unit, assuming all the lead is intact, not damaged by water etc?
Also, at the very beginning of this thread,
He was never given an answer, only told units couldn't be repaired. But as you have confirmed that they can be repaired, I'll ask his original question again, but slightly differently.
Do you know what sealant could be used to go around the edges of the unit to improve/repair the seal, on a unit where there is no water damage, and only the first minimal signs of misting, or indeed no misting at all?
If units are over say 15 to 20 years old, and most are still fine, I will assume they must be close to "breaking down". But as units are fairly easy to take out and put back in again, I want to take out all of my own and re-seal/improve the seal on them prior to them showing any signs of misting. This would greatly extend the life of the units I already have.
The 2 units I already took out and seem to have dried out, are still completely mist free (they were previously both misted). I would like to re-seal these too, to prevent any more water re-entering them. I just need to know the correct sealant to use and where to buy it.
yes you can do this to leaded units thats what i meant by decrotive dgu's and these are the most likely that need repairing. you just have to be carefull not to damage the lead when doing so.
the most common sealeant is, what they call in the trade, hotmelt. this comes in a number of different types. but its applyed at a heat of anything between 170- 200 degrees celsius and therefore you need a machine to do it.
but some dgu's are sealed with a cool sealant, again by machine, but i have never dealt with this sealant only seen it when replacing dgu's or on special order ones.
to tell the difference, hotmelt is harder to the touch almost like tar maybe. and coolseal is softer and more rubbery.
on dgu's their weak points in the sealant are on the corners. sometimes you can see a small hairline crack. if sealed with hotmelt you could possibly heat up the corners with a heat gun untill the sealant becomes loose and then reshape the corners using a rubber pad. ( i have never done this and i wouldn't really recommend it as it could make it worse).
the best option is always getting a new dgu or doing the repair i posted earlier. hope this helps
the most common sealeant is, what they call in the trade, hotmelt. this comes in a number of different types. but its applyed at a heat of anything between 170- 200 degrees celsius and therefore you need a machine to do it.
but some dgu's are sealed with a cool sealant, again by machine, but i have never dealt with this sealant only seen it when replacing dgu's or on special order ones.
to tell the difference, hotmelt is harder to the touch almost like tar maybe. and coolseal is softer and more rubbery.
on dgu's their weak points in the sealant are on the corners. sometimes you can see a small hairline crack. if sealed with hotmelt you could possibly heat up the corners with a heat gun untill the sealant becomes loose and then reshape the corners using a rubber pad. ( i have never done this and i wouldn't really recommend it as it could make it worse).
the best option is always getting a new dgu or doing the repair i posted earlier. hope this helps
Hi Bowie77,
Thanks very much for your posts.
Yup it does help.
I have one unit that has water damage on the glass. --- track marks that I understand can't be removed--- , so as this one is a lost cause anyway, I will experiment with it. ---- First I will try sealing it, and then try splitting it since I have nothing to lose.
Again with my other units that I already took out and put back. They are still not misted, so I have nothing to lose really, in trying to look for possible leak areas on these, and re-seal them; --- especially now I have some idea of where to look, and know better how to identify the type of sealant.
One idea I have, just as an experiment with my water damaged unit before I split it, is to immerse it in water, in a tank, similar to the way you would with an inflatable inner tube when you look for a leak (only in reverse). This will put the unit under much more pressure than just atmospheric, and should reveal any significant leak. Obviously I wouldn't do this to better units, but in this case it wont matter if more water enters the unit, as I can then test re-sealing methods, If I can identify the leak that is.
Anyway, You seem to be the lone voice from the industry, posting on here with some clarity about what can and what can't be done with sealed units. Everybody else has said that if the unit is "blown", the only option is to throw it away and buy a replacement.
Is that because not many people (even in the glazing industry) realise that units can be repaired, or that the industry just doesn't want to tell joe public?
Once again thanks very much.
Thanks very much for your posts.
Yup it does help.
I have one unit that has water damage on the glass. --- track marks that I understand can't be removed--- , so as this one is a lost cause anyway, I will experiment with it. ---- First I will try sealing it, and then try splitting it since I have nothing to lose.
Again with my other units that I already took out and put back. They are still not misted, so I have nothing to lose really, in trying to look for possible leak areas on these, and re-seal them; --- especially now I have some idea of where to look, and know better how to identify the type of sealant.
One idea I have, just as an experiment with my water damaged unit before I split it, is to immerse it in water, in a tank, similar to the way you would with an inflatable inner tube when you look for a leak (only in reverse). This will put the unit under much more pressure than just atmospheric, and should reveal any significant leak. Obviously I wouldn't do this to better units, but in this case it wont matter if more water enters the unit, as I can then test re-sealing methods, If I can identify the leak that is.
Anyway, You seem to be the lone voice from the industry, posting on here with some clarity about what can and what can't be done with sealed units. Everybody else has said that if the unit is "blown", the only option is to throw it away and buy a replacement.
Is that because not many people (even in the glazing industry) realise that units can be repaired, or that the industry just doesn't want to tell joe public?
Once again thanks very much.
Now hold on just a minute, you are now talking about repairing blown units a different way, quite different to drying them out on the back lawn and re-fitting them, no one has disputed splitting units in order to repair them, infact i have already suggested splitting dgu's as another repair method within this 5 page thread although i dismissed it also as its just not viable.
Splitting a unit just to reuse the glass is fine if you're that way inclined, at least you get a new spacer bar, dessicant and hotmelt seal but in some cases it just not worth it, i certainly wouldn't waste my time splitting a float unit and i'd only ever do it to a toughened unit and it would have to be a big one otherwise a new dgu really won't be that much dearer, i have shown you prices to illustrate this.
You've not repaired anything yet, you need to post back in 5 years with the results. You're not getting it though!
Crank39.
And yes it is different of course, to drying and re-fitting the same unit without splitting.
But until Bowie explained how, I didn't know it was that easy.(relatively) Everywhere else I have only read how difficult it is. And apart from your (crank39) comment on splitting nobody elas here mentioned it as a possiblilty until Bowie.
Anyway I am now looking at a couple of different ways to tackle a failed unit, other than simply discarding the unit, and I haven't abandoned finding a way to dry them either.
Some things in life are truly impossible, but many are simply in need of the right way to tackle it. And just because one particular way has become the mainstream and accepted way, doesn't mean that its the only way. Neither does it mean that ways that were used in the past, are excluded forever.
With respect Freddiemercury, I dont need to convince anyone here of anything. I only need to get information, which I have, and prove it too myself. You say I am not getting it, but has anyone else done what I have, -- albeit accidently- and still have a mist free unit? Most people just take out the failed unit and discard it. has anyone ever tried to dry it?
So unless you have, how can you state to categorically that I have not repaired anything; esp when I dont even do that. I have been careful to say "fix" with quotes, in most posts, because i am evaluating the results whilst looking at ways to improve and consolidate. But am confident that I have indeed stumbled on a way to re-use a unit that was hitherto only scrap.
If it lasts only a year that is a fix.
If a new unit only lasts 5 years, that is nothing to boast about in my book, when the potential is for so much longer.
Well not exactly suggested it, but certinly dismissed it as too expensive. but bowie has laid ou the method and said its cheap to get them re-sealed. ( I accept your point that with some units it might be cheaper to replace.)
And yes it is different of course, to drying and re-fitting the same unit without splitting.
But until Bowie explained how, I didn't know it was that easy.(relatively) Everywhere else I have only read how difficult it is. And apart from your (crank39) comment on splitting nobody elas here mentioned it as a possiblilty until Bowie.
Anyway I am now looking at a couple of different ways to tackle a failed unit, other than simply discarding the unit, and I haven't abandoned finding a way to dry them either.
Some things in life are truly impossible, but many are simply in need of the right way to tackle it. And just because one particular way has become the mainstream and accepted way, doesn't mean that its the only way. Neither does it mean that ways that were used in the past, are excluded forever.
With respect Freddiemercury, I dont need to convince anyone here of anything. I only need to get information, which I have, and prove it too myself. You say I am not getting it, but has anyone else done what I have, -- albeit accidently- and still have a mist free unit? Most people just take out the failed unit and discard it. has anyone ever tried to dry it?
So unless you have, how can you state to categorically that I have not repaired anything; esp when I dont even do that. I have been careful to say "fix" with quotes, in most posts, because i am evaluating the results whilst looking at ways to improve and consolidate. But am confident that I have indeed stumbled on a way to re-use a unit that was hitherto only scrap.
If it lasts only a year that is a fix.
If a new unit only lasts 5 years, that is nothing to boast about in my book, when the potential is for so much longer.
No you are still not getting it, you're repair has not even lasted a year yet let alone a winter so you're claim that this equates to a commercial 'fix' is unfounded. You need to have fixed say a few hundred units which have all been successful and lasted long enough to be considered as a financially viable alternative to replacement. Then you can say you have found a fix.
In answer to your statement. Again with respect FM'sTwin, you are simply repeating your posts. Also, I trust that this thread will remain as civil as it hitherto has.
I assure you I am "geting it", as you put it FM'. I assure you I completely understand your posts. You seem fixated on the business aspect, whilst I am not. I did not claim a commercial fix in anything yet. To repeat myself, that's why I have put the quotation marks on the word fix, whenever I use it. Please refer to all my previous posts.
Back to the point, ---- my units are still mist free, including one that was almost constantly misted. The only way this can be so, is if there is less moisture within the 2 sheets of glass, that is not already contained in the desiccant. And since misting can only occur if the desiccant is saturated, ergo, the desiccant in this particular unit must no longer be saturated, or is at least back to a level of saturation, if it can be called that, that enables it to prevent misting, by holding the moisture in check.
To put that simply, I have dried out the desiccant (albeit accidently), to some significant degree.
Given that I have also removed the standing water in the lower chanel, increased the packing height, and improved the drainage, it is not accurate to state, that the unit will fail again, without knowing the state of the sealant. And again, without specific knowledge about the condition of the sealant, there is no reason to suppose that the sealant is leaking anymore now than any of my other units (that are still mist free from 1st installation), or anymore than it was immediatley post manufacture.
With the info from Bowie, I am now looking at sealants and mehods of repairing leaks. Either a suitable method of adding more of a sealant that wont react with or /degrade what is already there, or local heating to seal a possible leak. I have several leads, and when I have something more specific, I'll post it.
As a side comment. Something surprises me about all this. This is forum (I thought it is/was), for people who obviously have enquiring open minds, and yet there seem to be quite a few posts from people who demonstrate the opposite. Negativity, in place of constructive criticism seems to apply here to many posts. Of course people are free to post as they see fit. C'est la vie I suppose.
Yes my post is a repeat, the thread is indeed just going round in circles as you do not seem to understand what we're saying.
We appear fixated with the word fix as you use it in every post be-it within inverted commas or not. Why not refer to it as a temporary repair as that is what it is until proved otherwise?
Your last comments are highly typical of a poster unsatisfied with the responses of the professionals and regulars on here.
We appear fixated with the word fix as you use it in every post be-it within inverted commas or not. Why not refer to it as a temporary repair as that is what it is until proved otherwise?
Your last comments are highly typical of a poster unsatisfied with the responses of the professionals and regulars on here.
hi, what you are doing is all very new to me but could be worth a go. the problem i see is with the dessicant. i always throw away dessicant that has been exposed to the atomsphere for more than 8 hours because i deem it useless as it causes dgu's to steam up when sealed (especially in winter). and also the re-sealing of the dgu, it needs to be done correctly.
yes water marked glass is no good. and i do split down units for customers from time to time, maybe 1 or 2 a month. (or if i cock up and put the wrong bar in).
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