Kitchen light switches

[GDPAMG]

Hi,

Sorry for the long winded post but I'm trying to get my head around the following...

When I did up my kitchen a few years ago, I asked the sparky to install a separate light switch and light fitting in the pantry so that I could turn the light on independently.

Light fitting and switch were fitted in the pantry but this only functions if the main kitchen light is also on. (Pantry light can be switched off independently but not on without the main light being on).

As far as I can tell the main kitchen light switch and the pantry light switch have no cable which connects one to the other.

Instead, it looks like the pantry switch gets its live feed from a junction box from one of the downlighters in the ceiling.

I had planned on replacing the 2 gang 2 way switch in the kitchen with a 3 gang switch to control main, under cab and pantry indepentendly but seeing as there is no direct cable to the pantry light it looks like this option is a no go.

I want to know the easiest way of controlling the pantry light independently without having to have the main kitchen light on.

Below is an explanation of the existing cables and switches. Linking one switch with the other is not an option as the route is all fitted cabinetry (had it been plasterboard I'd have chased it out and put a new cable in).

Kitchen switch (2 gang 2 way):

Cables:

1. Under cabinet lights - Yellow switched live - Red live L1 (Right switch) - Blue to terminal block.

2. Main light (downlighters) - Red live COM (left switch) - Black to terminal block.

3. Hall light - Red live to COM (right switch) - Black to terminal block.


Pantry (1 gang)

Cables:

1. Brown to L1 - Blue to terminal block

2. Blue (switched live) to L2

3. Blue - terminal block to ceiling rose.


The light functions as follows:

Main kitchen light on + Pantry switch on = Pantry light on

Main kitchen light on + Pantry switch off = Pantry light off

Main kitchen light off = pantry light does not function.

I had thought about adding and extra switch in the pantry (a bit like a bathroom fan with an isolating switch and an pull cord) but in this case the main kitchen light needs to be on or the pantry doesn't get its live feed?

Any help greatly appreciated.

 

[EFLImpudence]

As far as I can tell the main kitchen light switch and the pantry light switch have no cable which connects one to the other.

It would appear that you are correct.

Instead, it looks like the pantry switch gets its live feed from a junction box from one of the downlighters in the ceiling.

Yes. If that juction box (or it could be just the light) only has a switched live and does not contain the main supply feed then you will not be able to alter it without another wire to the main supply feed - wherever that is.

Can you tell where the original single light might have been?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Light fitting and switch were fitted in the pantry but this only functions if the main kitchen light is also on. (Pantry light can be switched off independently but not on without the main light being on).

Bit of a tw@, your sparky, wasn't he.

Why did you never get him back at the time to do it properly?

As far as I can tell the main kitchen light switch and the pantry light switch have no cable which connects one to the other.

Instead, it looks like the pantry switch gets its live feed from a junction box from one of the downlighters in the ceiling.

It should have a permanent live feed. Instead it's being fed by the switched live for the downlights.

I had planned on replacing the 2 gang 2 way switch in the kitchen with a 3 gang switch to control main, under cab and pantry indepentendly but seeing as there is no direct cable to the pantry light it looks like this option is a no go.

There is a cable to it - from the switch in the pantry.

The fact that that switch was not wired properly has no bearing on what you would have to do (i.e. run a new cable to the 3-gang switch) if you want to move the switching to another location. Even if it were working properly you would still have to install a new cable to connect the new (3rd) gang in the new 3-gang switch to the pantry light.

I want to know the easiest way of controlling the pantry light independently without having to have the main kitchen light on.

The easiest way is to take the conductor in the pantry switch cable which is connected to the downlight JB and move it to a permanent live connection.

Cables:

1. Under cabinet lights - Yellow switched live - Red live L1 (Right switch) - Blue to terminal block.

2. Main light (downlighters) - Red live COM (left switch) - Black to terminal block.

3. Hall light - Red live to COM (right switch) - Black to terminal block.

Sorry - your description and/or labelling can't be right.

For a start you are talking about 3 lights (main, cabinet and hall) but there are only 2 gangs.

Then if the yellow is the switched live for the under cabinet lights then the COM for that gang must have a permanent live, so then how are the main lights controlled?

If you want to do anything more complicated than just correct the permanent live connection for the pantry switch then basically you're going to have to choose between Plan A and Plan B.

PLAN A:

• Learn how lighting circuits are wired.
  • //www.diynot.com/wiki/Electrics:Lighting
  • http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/House_Wiring_for_Beginners#Lighting
    
  • http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=uk+lighting+wiring+(basics+OR+101)
  • //www.diynot.com/wiki/Electrics:books
  • //www.diynot.com/wiki/Electrics:index
• Get a multimeter and learn how to use it.
• Identify which conductors are which at the switches and the light positions.
• Check for circuit continuity, switches working etc.
• Connect everything up properly.

PLAN B:

• Get an electrician (this time, one who is actually competent)

There are some irresponsible people here who will tell you that there is a Plan C, which is to start trying different things without really knowing what's going on, hoping to get it working by luck, or by blindly following instructions to put-this-wire-in-that-hole without any idea as to why. Please don't listen to them - you must know what, and truly understand what, you are doing.

Electrical-installation-by-guesswork is a foolish idea.

There is no Plan C for anybody sensible.

 

[GDPAMG]

Yes. If that juction box (or it could be just the light) only has a switched live and does not contain the main supply feed then you will not be able to alter it without another wire to the main supply feed - wherever that is.

Can you tell where the original single light might have been?

I've found a junction box in the ceiling now, need a bit more time to retrieve it to see if I can move the pantry switch to permanent live rather than switched as you suggest.

Bit of a tw@, your sparky, wasn't he.

Why did you never get him back at the time to do it properly?

At the time I went in to hospital for an op, when I got back to the house I was renovating the whole thing before moving in and I never actually used the thing until after moving in (a long time afterwards).

It should have a permanent live feed. Instead it's being fed by the switched live for the downlights.

This makes sense, now that I can see where the junction box is in the ceiling cavity I can investigate whether or not the permanent live goes to it.

There is a cable to it - from the switch in the pantry.

The fact that that switch was not wired properly has no bearing on what you would have to do (i.e. run a new cable to the 3-gang switch) if you want to move the switching to another location. Even if it were working properly you would still have to install a new cable to connect the new (3rd) gang in the new 3-gang switch to the pantry light.

I had assumed that there was a cable directly linking the switches which had been terminated into the same connection as the main light, I understand now that's not an option. I'm happy to use the existing pantry switch if I can connect it to the permanent live rather than the current switched live connection of the main light JB.

Sorry - your description and/or labelling can't be right.

For a start you are talking about 3 lights (main, cabinet and hall) but there are only 2 gangs.

Then if the yellow is the switched live for the under cabinet lights then the COM for that gang must have a permanent live, so then how are the main lights controlled?

You could well be right, I was going by process of elimination and isolating each connection to see what stopped working and labelling accordingly. I have no idea how the hall light comes into the equation as it is not operated by this switch but that's what stops working when it's disconnected.


Thanks all for the responses, as soon as I get time I'll retrieve the junction box that I can see in the ceiling and see if this is where the permanent live goes to.