New Install & Boiler Advice.......

[Humour]

Hi all,

I've recently moved into a 3 bed end of terrace built in the 1960's (my first home), where I inherited an old Gloworm backboiler CH system, which although reliable thus far is far from ideal as I have been averaging heating only bills of £120GBP per month based on having the heating on for an hour each morning and around 4-5hrs on/off in the evenings during the winter months. Not to mention a broken stat, which upon replacement hasnt fixed the ability to control the boiler working on full blast and none of the radiators having TRV's equates to too cold or too hot avg. temperatures from room to room.

With that in mind, I've been saving funds and more recently have had three quotes for a combi system install with an average of around 4K all in.

Having spent some considerable time reading FAQ's, reviews and opinions on here and on other online sources, my initial boiler choice conslusions are now coming into question.

I will attempt to give you all of my particualrs below, but if there is anything I have missed out please ask and I will do my best to give you the correct information.

Suggested/Reccomended Boiler = Worcester Greenstar 30CDI
Measured Flow Rate @ Kitchen Tap = 14Ltrs/pm
Boiler Location Options =

1-In Cupboard on 1st floor landing currently housing hot water tank and CH pump/plumbing/Programmer/CE Electrics.

2-In loft on outer wall (end of terrace).

Gas supply = in cupboard under stairwell.
Radiators = All radiators to be replaced with new items + TRV's, including a radiator to be added to extended kitchen by extending pipework from extended dining room (back to back with kitchen). Also removing radiator in bathroom and terminating pipework under floor ready for radiator re-fit post bathroom renovation at a later date.

Quoted for:

1. Supply and fit boiler (in loft), flue, metal particle filter, inhibitor, full system flush, handheld RF programmer/stat (my request), pressure gauge in landing cupboard, run 28mm gas supply to boiler, supply and fit all radiators + RTV's, including the addition of the new rad in the kitchen. Remove tank and piping in loft and storage tank in cupboard, plus tidy pipework. Cut/terminate gas pipe to living room boiler at gas supply, remove boiler and gas fire in living room. Remove and terminate pipework for future bathroom radiator install. Plumb and terminate water supply piping for mixer shower (either in loft or under floor in bathroom), I inherited an electric shower which is staying for now.

2. As above but install boiler in landing cupboard with flue through roof. +£250 of the above.

All of the suppliers who have quoted had a differrent choice of "budget" boilers that they reccomended, but they all seemed to agree that the Worcester GS 30CDI is the best choice for reliability provided funds allow for this.

With the above in mind, I have been trying to research the percieved reliablity of the Worcester from online sources to ensure that I dont end up with a bad choice of an expensive upgrade and I have to say, I am somewhat disturbed by the general feedback I'm reading from end users. I read about 30 reviews from the source below and whilst they cover various types of Worcester boilers, the average feedback regarding the quality of the products and the WB customer service and support is less than impressive.

Reviews Source: Worcester Reviews

As such, my first question to the people in the know is, which combi boiler would you reccomend based on product quality and reliability, manufacturer warranty and support service that can be relied on?

My second question is, what other reccomendations and/or considerations can you highlight for my heating upgrade based on my circumstances?

I would appreciate it if people can provide their opinions and experiences without starting a "flame war" as this is not the intention of this thread.

May thanks in advance for any feedback, and sorry for the lengthy first post

Regards, Hum

 

[Terry lambert]

My personal choice would be a Vaillant 831' and that's the problem, engineers have their preferences as well.

As a mid - budget boiler I like Glow Worm

They all offer five year warranties If your installer is signed up to them, their after care is about the same.

If you fit the boiler in the loft you will need a pipe stat and frost stat, as well as lagging.

If running new pipe work across your loft and down in the airing cupboard to make a neater job, this should be a more expensive instsllation. You may also lose a small amount in performance as the boiler is a little higher

In the airing cupboard you have most of the pipes you need already their.
But by installing here you would still lose the cupboard space.

 

[mickyg]

would be a bit concerned about your 14l/min this needs a bit more investigation imo. If you stick a combi in the loft you could well end up with 8-9 l/min out of your hot tap......most disappointing.
As for WB, they are reasonable boilers with a decent aftercare, but certainly not the boiler their price would indicate. Everyone will give you a different opinion though so I dont think a recommendation holds much value.

Have you got an outside tap? or any other tap off the mains? It might be worth checking them running at the same time and add the values together. A dynamic pressure check would be useful also.

 

[dcawkwell]

It amazes me people hold back calling a heating engineer in knowing
their existing system isn't working right and it costs a fortune in bills.
Where if they got it sorted promptly they would save in the long run.

Keep the old back boiler.
Sort the existing system out.
My mums back boiler only costs a few hundred pounds a year to run
and that is on a 3 bed bungalow. A small terrace house should be even
less.

Ensure the hot water tank is properly lagged.
Ensure hot water tank thermostat and wall thermostat installed and working.
Thermostatic valves on radiators and the system will cost pennies to run.

 

[ALEC1]

and stop paying monthly! Pay quarterly by cheque so you know where the money is going...

I think though DC the issue is that people don't realise how a system design can affect fuel usage..

 

[Humour]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

@terrydoh - I understand the issue with preferences, thats why Im tryingto do as much research as I can in order to be ableto make aninformed decision.

I dont particularly want to fit the boiler in the loft, Im happy with it in the cupboard, but my last RGI I think preferes this option as its easier to get the fleu installed, thus has quoted +£250 for the cupboard option.

@mickyg - What should I do to confirm water pressure/flow then mickey? The 14ltrs/pm came from an RGI pulling out his little tool and measuring the flow in the kitchen. I do have an outside tap, but that gets its feed from the kitchen cold water pipe, so I'm not sure if anything can be gained by having both on full at the same time as they share the incoming pipe? Also what do I need to do to carry out a dynamic pressure check and how important is this, presumably its important to decide which boiler with what flow rate should be selected?

@dcawkwell - Like I said, Inherited everything thats currently in the house. I've only been in the property 5 months and in that time I had to pay an RGI to come and plug in the open GAS pipe left in the kitchen by the previous owners (they were nice enough to leave me a note not to turn the gas meter on ), had the pre-payment meter changed out by BG, had the backboiler serviced, changed the thermostat and had the system recomissioned.

The problem is, half of the radiators are the wrong size for the rooms (too small), the kitchen doesnt even have a rad and because it doesnt get any sunshine it the coldest room in the house even in summer, and that needs sorting because its a big room. In five months I've already spent quite a bit of cash, nevermind the first time house purchase I'm not a bank you know, but I guess Im doing better at my affairs than they are atm but honestly, Im worried I could just be chasing a problem after a problem with the existing system, so my strategy is to overhaul, improve efficiency as much as possible and end up with a comfortable warm living area around the house, and plug in that bloody hole in the living room, its bloody noisy and cold in the winter with the wind inviting itself in my front room. Besides, Im one of those eco concious types and I would like to be as efficient as possible. Pre-heating water every morning and every evening, as opposed to heating what you use is not very efficient in my mind In addition I can get rid of the electric shower and I will gain the loft space back which is big enough to make a room out of

@Alec1 - Sorry I dont get your point.... I am on an online tariff and I'm supposed to pay for what I use, I give them gas meter readings every 16th of every month without fail, and to be fair since the new meter started on 0000.00, its has been moving on pretty fast I dont understand why paying quarterly will save me money?

Regards

Hum

 

[Terry lambert]

I'm surprised that the loft install is cheaper!

A dynamic pressure or standing pressure test is important. You would have a pressure gauge and attach it to a pipe, sometimes a washing machine conection or tap and measure the standing pressure, maybe one bar etc

Flow is the the amount of water you will get out of the pipe, pressure (dynamic test) is the force behind the water, ie if your boiler is in the loft , you will need sufficient pressure to get up there and for the boiler to perform.

Flow and pressure are two different things.

Kitchen taps are often restrictive and so may not give you an accurate reading, which is why running the garden tap and kitchen tap together, measureing and adding the two values will give you a more accurate reading of your flow rate.

 

[JohnD]

paying by direct debit usually brings you a discount.

 

[Humour]

I'm surprised that the loft install is cheaper!

Flow and pressure are two different things.

I am surprised this is the case too, since they have to run more piping for both gas and water. I can only conclude that since the flue has to run straight up and through the roof, to make the hole in the roof and seal it will be where the additional cost is coming from

I understand the difference between flow and pressure. Thanks for raising this up though. I will be asking the next guy or any of the guys returning to get those two clarified in no uncertain terms, as this will likely play a factor in where the boiler is going to be installed regardless of preference!

I've been reading some more about Combi boilers and to be honest I am not impressed. A life expectancy of 5 years is not exactly what I had in mind an that not including issues and cost in between to keep the things running. In terms of total cost of ownership, the claims that a more efficient boiler is going to save money doesnt hold true if the thing is going to need a new pump, heat exchanger, sensors, etc. every other year since these come attached with a bill often exceeding 200GBP This area of product selection appears to be a mine field. As a network and wireless design engineer I've had to deal with fairly complex problems in my day to day job but I have to admit that I've never been faced with so much uncertainty and split opinions on products designed to do a relatively simple function.

I've been reading user reviews about Vaillant Ecotec Plus 831 today and opinions appear to be just as bad as the WB boilers

Is it really the case that there isnt a single combi boiler out there which can boast a 10+ year life cycle??? Shocking!

Regards

Hum

 

[Terry lambert]

With the loft installation was the flue going horizontal straight out of a wall off of the top of the boiler or out of the roof?

You will find negatives on the net about anything, often premature failure of parts is down to poor installation, not cleaning or flushing the system properly.

Have a look at inter gas, their are a few engineers on here that really rate them although I have not fitted any myself.

They have few parts and so less to go wrong

 

[ServiceNumpty]

If you read those reviews you will find that a lot are due to poor installs, the Cdi in my opinion is a good boiler, overpriced, but a good boiler. The after sales from Worcester is top notch. As Micky has mentioned really really check those flow figures because you will be disappointed.
Are any of your installers accredited Worcester Bosch installers, you would receive 7 years parts and labour warranty. I would probably offer you an option of a sealed system boiler with stored hot water, as a lot of clients do not realise there are other options available to them, the combi boiler is not the be all and end all. I will not recommend a combi for family members, my mum in Bedford has a viessmann boiler with stored hot Water, my daughters have a viessmann, broag and I have a Worcester. The important factor is a clean system.

 

[DP]

I am surprised this is the case too, since they have to run more piping for both gas and water. I can only conclude that since the flue has to run straight up and through the roof, to make the hole in the roof and seal it will be where the additional cost is coming from

Don't see how as standard flue is cheaper than a vertical flue plus roof flashing. Not forgetting you are likely to need 28mm gas line for the kind of boiler you are looking at, I would be looking at the spec with a fine tooth comb and a big magnifying glass.

 

[Humour]

@ terrydoh Well the cupboard where the boiler would ideally be sited (if it was my choice entirely) is located kind of in the middle of the house, so going up into the loft this will be in free space so to speak.

To reach any sort of wall, the flue run would have to move horizontally about a metre or so to reach the chimney wall and up from there if thats feasible. Alternatively it will have to go in the other direction 180deg. to reach the connecting wall with the other house, but that may foul the loft hatch entry point....... so Im not 100% sure what all three companies are planning on that front.

@ DP, dont kill the messenger, dont forget Im just a home owner trying to do my homework so I dont get bent over for a good ol' slapping during install AND in the foreseable future. Only 1 of the three guys who came to quote suggested 28mm piping, the other two said 22mm will be sufficient. The run from the Meter to the Cupboard is no more than 3 metres, if that means anything. Also Im quote happy to list the quote in detail without disclosing any names, if necessary.

@ Michelle, to be honest I cant argue one way or the other, but there are enough posts on this forum from installers arguing the toss in the opposite direction regarding WB and their customer service and technical support in particular, so I'm just trying to read as much as I can about other's expiriences and gain an average consensus on what is the least amount of risk in the long run whilst getting the required result.

Regarding boiler options, the main purpose of this system will be for heating, hot water at the taps and eventually when I get to it would like a mixer shower to replace the electric one. Presumably a hot water tank will need to be pre-heated (by gas?) and hold the water warm? If so then this is the same I have at the moment with the bakcboiler and I am heating the water for 30 mins in the morning for 1 person (of 3) who uses the hot water to wash their face and hands for 2 mins each morning. For me thats a waste of natural resources as heating up a 30+ litre tank to the required temp. will always take time and burn fuel. What would I gain by doing this? Im not excluding this option, just trying to rationalise it.

I will do my best to figure out the flow and pressure facts, but bearing in mind Im not an installer and dont really have the tools to do this, should I....

a. look to buy the tools required
b. ask one of the quoting installers to carry out this check and give me the numbers.

I would like to ask the professionals out there what is the general consensus when choosing a boiler regarding flow rates.....If for argument sake I have 14ltrs/pm flow, does the boiler need to be just below this rate or just above? I ask because boilers jump in flow rates between models and I presume households will throw up significantly higher variations in flow rates, so getting a perfect match is somewhat difficult from what I can tell.

Lastly, I've been reading on here a thread about the Remeha boilers. Most installers who have had their say are saying good things about this company's quality, reliability and customer service, so I thought I'd check their website today.......lol you can tell that my working day has been very productive for "me"

The Remeha Avanta Exclusive 28c looks perhaps a good choice, but comes with an 11.4l/m flow rate, then next one up is 14.2l/m. Both use a 22mm gas connection. The 7 day wireless programmer also looks a good unit. Any opinions?

By the way, any corgi registered professional out there who can offer a 5 year warranty with parts and labour on a boiler they will swear against (preferably the Remeha units ) and can cover the Dunstable/Luton region is welcome to come and discuss my options and provide me with a quote for doing the job.

I'm a tight git, who isnt these days, but I understand the importance of doing this right, after all trying to save a few quid by skimping on preparation against a 4K+ investment in such a system is not thinking right or isnt able to understand the concept of "total cost of ownership", which I do, since I have to often argue this point with our customers

Regards

Hum

 

[Terry lambert]

A horizontal flue would be cheaper because if the boiler is on an external wall that is the end of the story.

A vertical flue is more expensive and then you also have a weathering slate,flue extensions, 2 45 or 2 90 elbows on most installs some will need a vertical adaptor and if your installer won't get on the roof you will need a roofer.

If the cupboard is only three meters away you may not need to upgrade the gas, although your engineer should check the working pressure and I would increase the pipe to 28 mm before the first tee anyway.

You need to check with the manufacture what they're actual flow rates are, for instance Worcester and Vaillant etc list their flowrates based on a 35 delta t but have a flow restrictor in them for a 42 delta t

Ie., a 831 lists 12.6 litrs a min But will actually give you 10

 

[Humour]

You need to check with the manufacture what they're actual flow rates are, for instance Worcester and Vaillant etc list their flowrates based on a 35 delta t but have a flow restrictor in them for a 42 delta t

Ie., a 831 lists 12.6 litrs a min But will actually give you 10

Ehh I didnt know that. So I can't even rely on their technical specifications for their products? Grrr.

Ok, so thats something else I have to do myself to make sure. My question regarding the matching of theflow rates remains unanswered however. Should the boiler "actual" flow rate be higher or lower than that of the mains? I accept that a perfect match is the preferred option, but I wish to know what is acceptable?

Do you have any opinion on the Remeha Avanta boilers at all?

Regards

Hum