Single switch - two lights - no diagram

[ban-all-sheds]

This is from the Electrician's Guide to the Building Regs - looks like a diagram to me, just not what I needed. But I take your point about it not being a design guide.

My apologies - I didn't know it had that. Maybe I should spend some time looking at it more before commenting as I did.

But thanks for posting it, because if you do carry on and learn more, and study for qualifications there will come a time, trust me, when you will look back and realise just how scary it was not only that you could look at this:

and not be able to grasp that you could do this:

but even more that you couldn't see why that cast serious doubts on your basic understanding of electrical circuits.

Your links were unrelated to the point

They were related to the point - you really do need to study more.

In respect of the Part P (semantics of qualifications aside) my understanding from training companies, eg. Builder Training Centre - it is possible to reach the level of being able to apply for self certification status - following as you say, the C&G parts - in all about 10 days. Presumably, this would require some pre-read and practice.

At a cost of about £1800, I reckon that is about one-third of the cost I would be quoted for a re-wire, so if I could self-certify I potentially save £3500 and gain a skill.

Does that £1800 include the cost of registration?

PLI, because even though you don't need it for DIYing you have to have to register?

Calibrated test equipment (hired is no good)?

And don't forget that you have to pass the assessment, which means being able to walk the walk not just talk the talk regarding testing, and show examples of your work, not all of which can be trivial.

 

[plugit]

ban-all-sheds
Thank you again for your trouble - but I don't agree the second diagram is a 'logical' extension of the first or indeed that it is scary for me not to make that leap of knowledge - did you have natural intuition when you were training or did someone explain? I asked. Does it follow that I know nothing about loop impedance or continuity testing - it might, but you don't know.

I had thought all roses had to be fully wired, but surely this is a simple error rather than a dangerous plan? An earlier posting alluded to the fact that the way I thought it should be done was possible and lawful, but unneccesary to fully wire the second rose unless there were future plans to run a separate switch. Again, it does not follow that I don't know brown from blue.

The fact that I was unclear on this and asked, seems somewhat wiser than some of the rather dangerous practices described elsewhere in the forum. However, I fully accept that there is plenty of scope for me to learn more and proceed carefully and for your guidance and wisdom I am grateful.


yorkspark

I didn't expect to be lauded by your profession, but your comments should be directed at the law and your own professional bodies who permit such courses. And no, I haven't wondered why apprentices don't do such courses. I think anyone understands that if you want to be a career electrician you would join a recognised company / study at a college.

However, I am not interested in becoming a career electrician. I made this clear and alluded to the fact I would shortly retire so time is not a issue - money is.

On that point I am surprised by your numbers (accepting that I overlooked some costs) but anytime you want to re-wire my house for £2100, pop down and I'll pay up. It has a few more rooms than your example, so I guess you're not about to accept?

I may have misunderstood the following paragraph, but this is taken from one of the training websites. Presumably, if they are mis-reporting there would be a breach of Trades Description? However, this seem to assert that on successful completion of the course (in this case it's £1700) one would be legally qualified to do the work I have in mind.

The fastest and most cost effective course on the market to get you fully qualified as a Domestic Electrician / Domestic Installer. This course has been created to bring all the key courses together to give you the necessary knowledge required to become a domestic electrician. The qualifications and skills will allow you to join a Government approved Competent Person Scheme. This allows you to carry out electrical installations in domestic dwellings and self certify that your own work meets the requirements set by Government legislation.

So £1700 for the course, £500-£700 materials, £500 registration and £125 test equipment (recommended by b-a-s - on ebay) so about £3k, give or take. I reckon that is still a couple of grand saving. (3-bed, 3 reception, utility, garage, drive entrance, water feature and shed).

I do understand your annoyance at such courses - they appear to be an affront to your profession - and I fully accept they will cover the basics, but that is what I need. They are a lawful means to an end and I think even with some adjustments, the numbers stack up in my favour.

I am confused by your costs for inspections - if I completed this course, wouldn't that mean that I self-certify? .... or do I need to do more reading!

Finally, I am rather saddened, but not surprised that you would not co-operate in the way I described. Strikes me there is a business opportunity to act as a consultant / inspector at a decent rate of pay. I guess your suggestion that even after 'qualifying' I would have two days' of mistakes to rectify indicates a bit of closed-shop thinking. Given that 4,000 people a year die on the roads, perhaps the law should insist we all use professional drivers rather than drive ourselves?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

ban-all-sheds
Thank you again for your trouble - but I don't agree the second diagram is a 'logical' extension of the first or indeed that it is scary for me not to make that leap of knowledge

I'm sure you don't. It's the classic unknown unknowns problem.

- did you have natural intuition when you were training or did someone explain?

IIRC I had no particular natural intuition. Quick to learn, yes, and not needing any elaborated explanations of things which were blindingly obvious, e.g. "cable resistances are not negligible" is all that was needed to instantly explain why there's voltage drop and why there are particular current carrying capacities.

I asked.

Indeed you did, and the fact that you did is good, but it did also show that you are not yet clued up enough, which is why I recommended more basic learning.

Does it follow that I know nothing about loop impedance or continuity testing - it might, but you don't know.

Indeed I don't, but I do know that it shows that you don't know how lighting circuits work.

If you did, then you would know that "all roses having to be fully wired" would not only be utterly pointless, but would actually be undesirable as it would introduce utterly unnecessary joints, i.e. utterly unnecessary points of failure.

I had thought all roses had to be fully wired, but surely this is a simple error rather than a dangerous plan?

It may be a "simple error", but it is one which arose out of an insufficient

.

An earlier posting alluded to the fact that the way I thought it should be done was possible and lawful, but unneccesary to fully wire the second rose unless there were future plans to run a separate switch. Again, it does not follow that I don't know brown from blue.

No it doesn't, but you need to know a lot more than just that.

I may have misunderstood the following paragraph, but this is taken from one of the training websites. Presumably, if they are mis-reporting there would be a breach of Trades Description? However, this seem to assert that on successful completion of the course (in this case it's £1700) one would be legally qualified to do the work I have in mind.

They get away with that because there is no such thing as "legally qualified". i.e. there are no restrictions on who can do any domestic electrical work, only on who can self-certify compliance with the Buiilding Regulations, and for that the requirement is registration with one of the Competent Person schemes, and they are free to set whatever qualification requirements they wish.

So £1700 for the course,

Seriously - have nothing to do with those - local FE colleges are much cheaper.

(Sorry, dingbat, but it's true).

£500-£700 materials,

Less.

£500 registration

£500 AND a successful assessment which will require more than just showing your exam certificate.

and £125 test equipment (recommended by b-a-s - on ebay)

Well...

You ought to be able to get decent s/h kit on eBay for £2-300 - depends how lucky you are and/or how long you want to wait for a bargain to turn up. And turn up they do - this recent one was particularly good, I thought: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/METREL-61557-MULTIFUNCTION-TESTER-LOOP-RCD-INS-CONT-/320764399772.[/QUOTE]
It was particularly good - in fact, as it included a calibration certificate the seller could have asked 2 or 3 x what he did and sold them all just as quickly and easily. I probably understated how good that deal was. I don't go looking for test equipment any more, but thinking about it, it's probably the best deal I have ever seen.

At that point you hadn't mentioned registering with a scheme, so I wasn't regarding a calibration certificate as an absolute must.

If you can get a multifunction, or set of 3, testers with a calibration certificate for £300 or less consider that an excellent result.

You should get a saved search on eBay running right away, and start tracking what testers go for. If you see one you want to bid on contact the seller and ask him if he would be happy to make the deal conditional on him getting the kit successfully calibrated for an extra £100 on top of the selling price. If he says no, realise that you are taking a risk if you bid, because you are going to have to fork out that £100 or so and might find there's something wrong.

I do understand your annoyance at such courses - they appear to be an affront to your profession

The problem is that they do not turn out people who are remotely qualified (in the wider sense) to work as electricians. They allow people to achieve an official status as a "registered electrician" who can then go and tout for jobs where they'll be taking money to do things that they have never done before, and for which they have nowhere near enough acquired skill.

And we see them asking here how to do their job all the time, and we see their sadly let down customers here with tales of woe about crap work and dreadful advice all the time.

That's why yorkspark said what he did.

The best analogy I can come up with quickly:

The day a 17-year old passes his driving test he is legally allowed to drive a vehicle carrying up to 8 passengers, and to drive on motorways despite never having done so before.

Would you let him drive you and your family to the south of France in a minibus?

Given that 4,000 people a year die on the roads, perhaps the law should insist we all use professional drivers rather than drive ourselves?

We should, and do, insist that someone who wants to drive a car demonstrates a level of competence.

But see the analogy above, and consider how much the legal minimum competence actually matches the real-world competence you would want someone to have to be a driver for you and your loved ones for anything more demanding than a short trip to the shops on quiet known roads in good weather.

When you've taken your courses, and passed your assessment for NICEIC/NAPIT/ECA/UTCAA, please pop back here and let us know how it all went.