spurs

[kokoshka]

Our kitchen is being re-configured to allow for new furnishings. I have 2 questions: A fused spur exists just below ceiling height, it used to provide power to a boiler, but the boiler is now elsewhere, the spur is not connected to any appliance. I would like to introduce 2 socket outlets below this spur, one above and one below a new worksurface. I would also like to connect a transformer high up, near the spur. I'm aware that it's bad practice to add a spur to a spur, but is it ok to change the existing fused spur for a junction box, and have three outputs, being the two sockets and one transformer? My other question is this: 2 socket outlets are fitted at about 1.5 m height on a wall, and about 1.5 m apart. I am assuming that they are part of the ring circuit, not spurs. How may I alter their positions horizontally, given that the wiring is chased in and cut to length. Since there is no lateral play, how may I safely extend the lateral runs?

 

[andy]

you should be aware that part P means you cant do any work in a kitchen w/o notifyin building control. search for part P for more info

if it is a fused spur, then you can take as many sockets as you want, but be aware there will be a max load of 13A, and in a kitchen this could blow frequently. i would advise to add them to the ring main in the kitchen. as spurs. whats the transformer for?

also, do not change the spur for a J/B, since you then cant spur from it

for moving the 2 other sockets, where do u plan on moving them to? if you move them the direction the cable comes in, then just move the backbox up. if the oposite direction, then youll need to extend the wires. to do this i would recommend crimping them, ideally under a floor/ceiling so being plastered over doent cause any problems

 

[securespark]

If you are going to the trouble of breaking into the ring, I wouldn't bother with spurs, I would make every outlet on the ring.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You need to learn a bit more:

I'm aware that it's bad practice to add a spur to a spur, but is it ok to change the existing fused spur for a junction box, and have three outputs, being the two sockets and one transformer?

That is the exact opposite of what you must do. Via an FCU you can have multiple sockets, without one, only 1.

My other question is this: 2 socket outlets are fitted at about 1.5 m height on a wall, and about 1.5 m apart. I am assuming that they are part of the ring circuit, not spurs.

Don't assume that - it makes a big difference - find out the reality before making decisions...

How may I alter their positions horizontally, given that the wiring is chased in and cut to length. Since there is no lateral play, how may I safely extend the lateral runs?

Simple - remove the short cables, lengthen the chases and install longer cables. You are refurbishing the kitchen - for heavens sake accept a bit more plastering/tiling/etc and do the job properly.

 

[kokoshka]

Thanks all of you for the replies. I am however still in the dark. The fused spur is up by the ceiling. I believe it to be the case that I can run a cable from this to a new socket outlet which I will situate just above the work surface, but I need a further outlet under the worksurface to run the fridge, and as far as I'm aware, I can't run a further cable from above the worksurface to below as this wouldn't be just more sockets, it would be a new spur. So it would be a spur from a spur. The transformer is for 12v lighting. Did I imply that I was shy of a little work? I do want to make a good job of this and am not in the least phased by a bit of chasing out and replastering, it is knowledge that I'm short of, and cash, hence the DIY approach. So, the two sockets: one of them can remain where it is, the other needs to be moved away from the first by about 60cm. Obviously I need to extend the length of cable between the two, but am not sure how this is normally done in a situation where access to the ceiling void is almost impossible and the floor is concrete. I need to make a join and plaster over, and don't know how this is done. Crimping was mentioned, could you explain what this involves? Finally, I was going to use the connecting block for the spur on the advice of a friend. He suggested that if instead of running the cable into a fused box, that I should use the connecting block, one cable in, three out, thus avoiding potential problems of blowing 13 amp fuses, and of putting spurs on spurs. I hope all this is clear, please help!

 

[andy]

Thanks all of you for the replies. I am however still in the dark. The fused spur is up by the ceiling. I believe it to be the case that I can run a cable from this to a new socket outlet which I will situate just above the work surface, but I need a further outlet under the worksurface to run the fridge, and as far as I'm aware, I can't run a further cable from above the worksurface to below as this wouldn't be just more sockets, it would be a new spur. So it would be a spur from a spur.

yes you can. its a fused spur so you can add as many sockets as you want

Crimping was mentioned, could you explain what this involves?

crimp the cores to the new cable using a ratchet crimp (you can get one for around £10-15). do not use the 99P cheepo type. youll have to make the joint waterresistant to be plastered over. do this by either heat shrinking the joint or using self [cant remember what its called] tape

if the cables goes from 1 socket to the other, itll be easier to replace that cable. also, if the cable comes up the floor/down the wall and you move the socket 60cm to one side, the cable will then be in the wrong place (see for reference for permitted cable zones)

Finally, I was going to use the connecting block for the spur on the advice
of a friend. He suggested that if instead of running the cable into a fused box, that I should use the connecting block, one cable in, three out, thus avoiding potential problems of blowing 13 amp fuses, and of putting spurs on spurs. I hope all this is clear, please help!

if you remove the FCU, then you can only have 1 socket connected. using a terminal block DOES NOT allow you to connect more sockets (since youll have a spur on a spur if using a terminal block). if it is fused, then you can. so keep the FCU

 

[kokoshka]

Many thanks, I understand now. The danger of spur on spur is presumably to do with overloading, and the fused spur will prevent that?
I will properly investigate the socket to socket cables and will install new cables rather than make joins if at all possible. Are there regs governing the routing of cables in walls, for example, if my cables come up from the floor to the location of the existing socket, can I route the cable at 90 degrees and chase in horizontally to the new location?

 

[andy]

Many thanks, I understand now. The danger of spur on spur is presumably to do with overloading, and the fused spur will prevent that?

correct.

I will properly investigate the socket to socket cables and will install new cables rather than make joins if at all possible. Are there regs governing the routing of cables in walls, for example, if my cables come up from the floor to the location of the existing socket, can I route the cable at 90 degrees and chase in horizontally to the new location?

yes there are regulations about where cables can go. search the forum for '(permitted) cable routes' etc
as for your question, no you cant bring it up the wall then change direction

 

[kokoshka]

Thanks again.