Supplimentry Bonding 17th Edition

Hi John, to me it seems pretty clear that the RCD (including its trip time) might have been the "crowning glory" that allowed this relaxation.
No argument about that - I'm sure you're right. I only questioned whether they actually needed to mention the first of the 'conditions' (disconnection time) for omitting supplementary bonding because (a) the circuit is required (if compliant) to have satisfactory disconnection times, anyway and (b) the RCD (second condition) would ensure satisfactory connection times even if they didn't exist without the RCD!

If it's a TT installation, of course, the RCD is the only device that would be providing satisfactory disconnection times.

Kind Regards, John.
 
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I think we are pretty much in agreement John,
RCD protection is usually supplementary in TN systems therefore the disconnection time is relying on the fuse/MCB primarily and that`s the time and Zs we work to . As a back up we add an RCD but do not place such reliance upon it as it is merely supplementary.

(If we ever test MCBs for trip times then how reliable would we find them? At the moment we take the type testing as absolute).

With a TT system we don`t have such a luxury and the only choice usually is to rely on an RCD. With a possible failure rate of 7% this might be a tadd worrying.

We might feel that two cascaded RCDs might give us a 7% x 7% failure rate therefore a 0.49% failure rate that we might feel more comfortable with but even this might delude us a little for two reasons.

1/ Usually to achieve discrimination we might have a 100mA time delayed RCD not classed as personal protection (If the fault occurred whilst we are holding something it might not save us but if the fault occurred before we hold something then well it might do) followed by a 30mA RCD that does give personal protection.

2/ RCD failure rates include not only the complete failure of RCDs to operate at all but also failure to operate within that time - ie it might work but be sluggish or it might work but at a higher trip current. One common reason for this is "stiction" - the mechanism sticks and therefore exceeds the trip time.

Two RCDs cascaded and both in the same environment because of close proximity might both suffer from such "stiction" so our perceived 0.49% again approaches the possible 7% figure.

One way to help to reduce "stiction" might be the frequent testing the mechanism by pressing the test button as we should (but rarely do!)

-------------------------

It has also been stated that a (correctly functioning ) RCD might be expected to save 95% of the population - the frightening thing is that this implies it would not save 5%.

When we test RCDs we test with all circuits disconnected but in real life connected appliances and wiring can alter the speed of voltage loss from the circuit .

___________________

RCDs are wonderful things and make life safer.
But they are not foolproof and should not be relied upon.
In TT systems we ain`t got much choice.

I did see a diagram for a supply disconnecter using a RCDto detect a loss of PEN in a TNC-S system - it would be illegal for use in UK as it disconnects the PEN conductor but in my opinion it does have its merits
 
I think we are pretty much in agreement John, RCD protection is usually supplementary in TN systems therefore the disconnection time is relying on the fuse/MCB primarily and that`s the time and Zs we work to . As a back up we add an RCD but do not place such reliance upon it as it is merely supplementary.
I still think that you may be thinking that I said something I didn't say. I'm obviously not suggesting that one should do away with the OPD and rely only on an RCD for 'L-E' fault protection - quite apart from anything else, one obvioulsy needs the OPD for overload and L-N fault protection.

Having said that, although there is always a lot of debate about this, I think you would be hard-pressed to find anything in the UK regs which explicitly says that one cannot 'rely on' an RCD to provide adequate disconnection times (even with a TN system) - although, as above, one would still need an OPD for other reasons. Indeed, Table 41.1 of BS 7671 (defining required disconnection times) actually has a footnote which starts "When compliance with this regulation is provided by an RCD ....", without saying that this only applies with TT systems.

You go on to raise the important point about the reliability of protective devices. As you say, we have some handle on the in-service 'failure rate' of RCDs, but haven't a clue about the corresponding in-service failure rate of MCBs. If one really had to choose between the two (which we clearly don't), I must say that I might be more inclined to 'rely' on an RCD. It can be tested, both by user and electricians (and replaced if found to be faulty) and the act of testing it regularly 'exercises' it and therefore reduces the chances of 'stiction'. I personally suspect that, if they could be routinely tested, the reliability of MCBs may well be found to be at least as poor as that of RCDs.

Furthermore, in response to a L-E fault of negligible impedance (which is what BS 7671 considers), the current (or current imbalance) resulting in the device operating, with a TN system' will be dramatically higher in relation to the device's 'trip threshold' for an RCD than for an MCB - which one might intuitively feel makes it more likely that the RCD would operated 'when required' in response to an L-E fault - with a PFC of, say, 640A, that would be less than 20 times the 'trip threshold' of a 32A MCB, but over 21,000 times the 'trip threshold' of a 30mA RCD.

It has also been stated that a (correctly functioning ) RCD might be expected to save 95% of the population - the frightening thing is that this implies it would not save 5%.
Very true, but you're going off at a bit of a tangent here. The only RCD which, when correctly operating, would get close to eliminating 100% of fatalities due to 'L-E' currents through human beings would have such a low IΔn that everyone would be driven mad by 'nuisance trips' (some of which might themselves result in dangers to life and limb) - and, of course, no circuit protective device under the sun can (or ever will be able to) protect people who come in contact with both L and N. As you say, RCDs are certainly no panacea, but are nevertheless worth having.

Kind Regards, John.
 
Mods, this thread has become a generic discussion with specific reference to UK Wiring Regulations, so might it be possible to put it back in the Electrics UK forum (where it started)?
 
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"I still think that you may be thinking that I said something I didn't say. I'm obviously not suggesting that one should do away with the OPD and rely only on an RCD for 'L-E' fault protection"

John,
No I never thought you`d said that.

And Yes, you as the designer, would be free to rely soley on the RCD for protection against earth faults if you saw fit on a TN system.

I think we are pretty much in agreement on your other points too.


:D
 
The same as, I believe, 'Max.Zs allowed' on certificates should still be that relating to the MCB and not 1667 for every circuit.
...I also think it should be 1666, as 1667 goes over....
I agree but a lot of the maximum Zs values are themselves rounded-up taking them over the calculated figures.
The reality is, of course, that (I hope) you would not accept a situation (or certify the installation as 'satisfactory') if the Zs were remotely as high as that - since it would mean either a totally unacceptable Ze (even if TT) or an even more unacceptable problem with the wiring (i.e.ridiculously high R1+R2), the reason for which could well result in serious hazards.

Of course, the 1666.7Ω (or whatever) max Zs figure results from a desire for and RCD to operate if the PD between CPCs (and exposed/extraneous-conductive-parts) and 'true earth' rises to an (essentially arbitrary) 50V or more. However, in a properly consituted equipotential zone, PDs relative to 'true earth' should not present a hazard. I imagine that most domestic electric shocks probably result from current flowing from L to CPC (or L to things connected/bonded to CPCs). In that situation, it could be argued that an extremely high Zs would actually be protective, since it would limit the current flowing through the person! It's therefore not as simple a situation as one might first think!

Kind Regards, John.
 
The same as, I believe, 'Max.Zs allowed' on certificates should still be that relating to the MCB and not 1667 for every circuit.
...I also think it should be 1666, as 1667 goes over....
I agree but a lot of the maximum Zs values are themselves rounded-up taking them over the calculated figures.
The reality is, of course, that (I hope) you would not accept a situation (or certify the installation as 'satisfactory') if the Zs were remotely as high as that - since it would mean either a totally unacceptable Ze (even if TT) or an even more unacceptable problem with the wiring (i.e.ridiculously high R1+R2), the reason for which could well result in serious hazards.
I will say "I would not" although we were only talking about the actual numbers involved and, indeed, I am dismayed how many 'electricians' on all fora, when discussing the subject, seem to state and apparently accept, when an RCD is present, that a Zs of 1667Ω 'will do'.
Plus the fact, as I said, a lot of the values are rounded-up - probably because it doesn't matter as so much safety margin is built-in.

However, I do think the regulations should be more scrupulously written.
As you wrote yesterday - 230/(32x5)=1.4375, therefore 1.44 is too high.

The regulations caused me to be proved wrong twice yesterday.
Once where I read them and thought they meant what they said - Class II and
once where I didn't read them and used logic and common sense - IPX5 at pools - ?

Having said "I would not", the maximum Zs allowed is just that and therefore acceptable, (if genuine, obviously). The 'ridiculously high value' may be genuine because of a 'highish' Ze (never found a TN-S Ze of 0.8Ω but it seems to be used) and a long circuit and/or the use of type C, or even D, MCBs.

Of course, the 1666.7Ω (or whatever) max Zs figure results from a desire for and RCD to operate if the PD between CPCs (and exposed/extraneous-conductive-parts) and 'true earth' rises to an (essentially arbitrary) 50V or more. However, in a properly consituted equipotential zone, PDs relative to 'true earth' should not present a hazard.
Agreed.

I imagine that most domestic electric shocks probably result from current flowing from L to CPC (or L to things connected/bonded to CPCs). In that situation, it could be argued that an extremely high Zs would actually be protective, since it would limit the current flowing through the person! It's therefore not as simple a situation as one might first think!
Indeed. Which is better? High Ze - lower current or low Ze quicker disconnection.
 
I don't fancy either!

I too agree 1666 (or 7) is ridiculously high, but I was arguing with the total they have arrived at, not that it would be acceptable.

I firmly believe that a Zs should fall within the bounds for the CPD, regardless of the RCD.
 
I will say "I would not" although we were only talking about the actual numbers involved and, indeed, I am dismayed how many 'electricians' on all fora, when discussing the subject, seem to state and apparently accept, when an RCD is present, that a Zs of 1667Ω 'will do'.
Indeed, and I've also been amazed to see electricians saying that, since a Zs that high is, to my mind, ludicrously high, and totally unacceptable, regardless of any consdierations of RCD operation.
Plus the fact, as I said, a lot of the values are rounded-up - probably because it doesn't matter as so much safety margin is built-in.
Yes but, in context, rounding is totally irrelevant, given that we're talking about a Zs which, for a power circuit in a TN installation, is something like 1000 times higher than it ought to be!
Having said "I would not", the maximum Zs allowed is just that and therefore acceptable, (if genuine, obviously). The 'ridiculously high value' may be genuine because of a 'highish' Ze (never found a TN-S Ze of 0.8Ω but it seems to be used) and a long circuit and/or the use of type C, or even D, MCBs.
I think you're being unduly generous, in terms of what we are discussing. With a TN-S Ze of 0.8Ω and a Zs of 1666Ω, you would have 1665.2Ω to account for from the R1+R2 of the cable (about 70,000 metres of 2.5mm² T/E) and, of course, a voltage drop of 1665.2V per amp!! Utterly ridiculous! Even with a TT, and a Ze of 200Ω (which I would regard as unacceptable), you'd still be looking for 1466 from the cable, hence about 62,000 metres of 2.5mm² T/E and a VD of 1466V per amp!
Indeed. Which is better? High Ze - lower current or low Ze quicker disconnection.
Quite. Of course, in the specfic sense we're talking about, it's almost a case of 'the higher the Zs the better' - once the Zs gets high enough that the maximum L-CPC current through a person is at a 'safe' level, then one doesn't need disconnection!

Kind Regards, John.
 
I firmly believe that a Zs should fall within the bounds for the CPD, regardless of the RCD.
...provided you're talking TN. Mind you, even then, I suspect that with a ('BS 7671') zero impedance L-E fault, the RCD might well operate first, and may even operate fast enough to prevent the OPD operating.

Kind Regards, John.
 
="EFLImpudence";p="2476520"]Having said "I would not", the maximum Zs allowed is just that and therefore acceptable, (if genuine, obviously). The 'ridiculously high value' may be genuine because of a 'highish' Ze (never found a TN-S Ze of 0.8Ω but it seems to be used) and a long circuit and/or the use of type C, or even D, MCBs.
I think you're being unduly generous, in terms of what we are discussing. With a TN-S Ze of 0.8Ω and a Zs of 1666Ω, you would have 1665.2Ω to account for from the R1+R2 of the cable (about 70,000 metres of 2.5mm² T/E) and, of course, a voltage drop of 1665.2V per amp!! Utterly ridiculous! Even with a TT, and a Ze of 200Ω (which I would regard as unacceptable), you'd still be looking for 1466 from the cable, hence about 62,000 metres of 2.5mm² T/E and a VD of 1466V per amp!
Oh no, I wasn't thinking of the RCD value in that statement. It didn't even occur to me that that was the case - my previous point.

More that, for 32A circuit a Zs of 1.44Ω (0.72 for type C) could be approached and that would be acceptable.
 
Interestingly, in the ECA Guide to the Wiring Regulations 17th Edition etc. (pub. Wiley) on page 63 section C4.6.5 they say:

"C4.6.5 Irrelevant E[F]LI Specification

A common source of misunderstanding is that of either specifying or measuring value of E[F]LI where the circuit also has an RCD fitted. E[F]LI measurement under such circumstances is a futile exercise. The circuit will have been checked for continuity, and this is all that is needed together with, of course, functional checks of the RCD. This criterion satisfies requirements for automatic disconnection."

They go on to state that this also applies to circuits protected by an RCBO.
 
From: ECA Guide to the Wiring Regulations 17th Edition etc. (pub. Wiley) on page 63 section C4.6.5
"C4.6.5 Irrelevant E[F]LI Specification


A common source of misunderstanding is that of either specifying or measuring value of E[F]LI where the circuit also has an RCD fitted. E[F]LI measurement under such circumstances is a futile exercise. The circuit will have been checked for continuity, and this is all that is needed together with, of course, functional checks of the RCD. This criterion satisfies requirements for automatic disconnection."
I totally disagree with that.
Perhaps the common source of misunderstanding is not where the author thought it was.

Can you check for continuity without realising what the value of R1+R2 is?

As stated above, it is just about impossible for a circuit to exceed 1666Ω so we may as well not measure anything.
 

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