Viessmann Vitotronics (and other systems?) room temperature

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Hi there,
I have a Vitodens 200 fitted with a Vitotronics 200 control.
The Vitotronics allows me to program on-off cycles and where it switches between "room temperature" (on) and "reduced room temperature" (off).
At least this is what I've understood.

What I don't understand is what it takes as "room temperature".
Is it the heating return? If not, what? Is there a sensor in teh boiler itself somewhere?
The boiler/control is in the basement and the only sensor I can see is the outdoor temperature one.

My installer "helpfully" reset all the factory preset values but I see from the manual that they included:
"Between 22:00 and 06:00h, central heating operates with reduced
room temperature (set to 3 ºC, frost protection)."

I'm guessing that this will effectively turn the heating off at night, wherever the sensor is.

Could anybody clarify re this "room temperature" measurement please?

Thanks,
John
 
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The Viessmann 200 has one of the most comprehensive control systems available.

Unfortunatlely this is complex and way over the abilities of most users to understand particularly if setback is not understood.

I am not going to try to answer your questions as I believe it needs a competent installer to set it up for you.

As far as I can remember from my last Viessmann visit the unit does have a sensor in it although as this would not work if the boiler is not fitted within the thermal envelope then there should be an opportunity to fit an external one.

It is complex to install and set up and beyond the scope of an internat forum to advise a user.

You did not say who fitted your boiler. Are they Viessmann trained or just a general plumber who is pretty much overwhelmed by the technology?

Tony
 
The Viessmann 200 has one of the most comprehensive control systems available.

Unfortunatlely this is complex and way over the abilities of most users to understand particularly if setback is not understood.

I am not going to try to answer your questions as I believe it needs a competent installer to set it up for you.

As far as I can remember from my last Viessmann visit the unit does have a sensor in it although as this would not work if the boiler is not fitted within the thermal envelope then there should be an opportunity to fit an external one.

It is complex to install and set up and beyond the scope of an internat forum to advise a user.

You did not say who fitted your boiler. Are they Viessmann trained or just a general plumber who is pretty much overwhelmed by the technology?

Tony

Hi,

Thanks a lot for the response. I understand your reticence in not being willing to advise somebody on this control unit but what I am trying to do is something that I am reading from the user's manual.. I've had a look at the installation annual as well and apart from the fact that I enjoyed the read, therer is no way that I am going to start delving into those possibilities.

In the end, my question is rather simple though - I have a big dial on the front that I can use to turn a "room temperature" up and down. This is there for user adjustment.
I have it presently set to 19C and I trust in the electronics to keep this temperature at 19C. But what is it that is kept at 19C? I was guessing either the return or some internal sensor as I do know that when I do the crudest of checks and place a thermometer on my living room radiator, I see it as over 30C. I am curious to find out what it measures exactly.

This button is made to be adjusted as I see from the manual:
Problem:
Rooms are too hot

Cause
Control unit incorrectly adjusted

Remedy
Check and correct settings, if required: Room temperature (see page 18)

Finally, the boiler was installed by supposedly Viessmann trained people.
It just seems to me that the (gas) flame is on a lot. Maybe it's just due to the fact that as it can modulate so deeply that it's a "permanent" minimal amount of enegry just to keep things ticking over.

Regards,
John
 
Sponsored Links
The Viessmann 200 has one of the most comprehensive control systems available.

Unfortunatlely this is complex and way over the abilities of most users to understand particularly if setback is not understood.

I am not going to try to answer your questions as I believe it needs a competent installer to set it up for you.

As far as I can remember from my last Viessmann visit the unit does have a sensor in it although as this would not work if the boiler is not fitted within the thermal envelope then there should be an opportunity to fit an external one.

It is complex to install and set up and beyond the scope of an internat forum to advise a user.

You did not say who fitted your boiler. Are they Viessmann trained or just a general plumber who is pretty much overwhelmed by the technology?

Tony

Opps, I'm very sorry that I didn't thank you for your time in answering. My apologies.
 
I don't know your boiler/control particularly well, but I would assume that its just a case of setting the right heating curve to match the heat loss of your property. Providing the heat curve is set correctly the boiler should give the correct room temperature. It will take a bit of trial and error, and badly sized radiators won't help. Ideally they should all be correctly sized about 20% too big. Alternatively I'm fairly sure that the system could be linked up with an external room theromostat if required.
 
As I said before, I think that the unit measures its temperature if an external indoor temperature sensor is fitted.

Assuming this is correct then it will be controling the temperature basd on your cold basement.

However, there are other possibilities and I think that the unit is totally programmable and may be set up to heat the inside solely based on the outside temperature. That is not really very good though as it has no knowledge of what the inside is actually like. In that mode the "curve" is set in the programming to make the inside "track" the outside.

A similar high spec Worcester controller I set up a couple ow weeks ago has a setting to give say outside = 60% and inside = 40% so that you can set the rlelvance of inside/outside temperatures.

As I said originally these are quite complicated to set up and need an understanding of heating systems hence my advice that you need someone who is very familiar with them.

Where are you living?

Tony
 
Better to get it sorted out by someone on site.

There are so many settings and they are all interdependent !

Tony
 
You need to read this description of weather compensation control on the Veissman website to understand how your system works: http://www.viessmann.co.uk/downloads/6pp Weather comp.pdf

It does seem counter-intuitive that a control system that only measures the external temperature can accurately control the internal temperature. The weather compensation control works by adjusting the flow temperature of the heating circuit, and therefore the heating power delivered from the boiler, dependent on the external temperature. The heat loss from a building depends on the difference between internal and external temperature. So, as the external temperature drops, the system delivers more heat into the building to maintain the set temperature. The system does not need to measure the internal temperature, although some weather compensators do include internal sensors.
 
Hmmmmmm.

I don't have the manual for that boiler, but I'd suggest you look at the pictorial wiring diagram and the diagram showing the conections to the 'Electric board'.

I think you will find that there are terminals for a room thermostat, which are wired together and that there are also terminals for an alternative thermistor room temperature sensor. If that is so, there is no temperature sensor on-board the boiler.

The boiler will fire and work without a room thermostat, but IMHO, it needs a room temperature sensor or thermostat. The weather compensation will not provide adequate control without this. The boiler flow temperature will be set by the outside air temperature, but it will not be able to take account of heat gains from inside the building (cooking, lights, people, room heaters, etc) which would affect the indoor temperature. TRVs would turn down the heat to rooms. Similarly, WC would not take account of large heat losses (doors, windows left open for some time, extract fans).

The room temperature sensor is preferable, it allows the boiler to modulate.

I recommended that boiler and controls combination to a relative a few years ago. I enquired about the prices and the merchants commenbted that they'd never sold the WC controller.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
 
Hello everyone I am a Viessmann 100 trained engineer . I was recommended to fit a 200 in my new house ( that is pretty different from the 100 ) by all Viessmann staff ie regional manager ...rep ... etc
it can be a bit tricky as the boiler is certainly the one with the highest specs on the market . I have an edwardian 4 bed with loft insulation and cavity walls ins... some new double glazing some fairly old doub glaz and bear floor boards at the mo.
I have set my high temp to 20 and have played with the heat curve for a month now ....
We have had a very unusual start of winter ( here in Eastbourne we got 13-14 degrees ) so my rads have not been coming very hot at all .... but the house has always maintained a nice temperature
I have had the heating timed ..all sorts of times on and off ....but it seems that the units burned are less if I have it on all day ...
With the temps outside quite high I have turned heat slope to 1.7 - 2.0 as I also have cast iron victorian radiators ... and the units of gas burned are a bit higher ( 5 a day ) . but I finally found that keeping the temperature to 20 when you want the heating on and the reduced temp 4 degrees less helps as the boiler come on on its own and tops up the rads and the pipework when its not timed....I only have Wc and this is how it works ... You can have a thermostat but it defeats the object as it will come on and off once the house has reached temp !
the Wc detects the temp outside and accordingly heats the house up ... there no sensor in the boiler for the temp inside the house .
the boiler knows that to achieve a set temp inside , the temp of the flow should always be lets say 30 degrees ( its just an example ! ) so everytime the boiler detects a loss of temp from pipework and rads it fires up to maintains it ! that s why the pump runs constantly .... so it spreads the heat until a little more is needed without the boiler having to stay on all the time or come on full blast to reheat the whole system up . Of course with WC the boiler will stay constantly in condensing mode so it will not fire up at full whack and thats where you make your savings on gas units .
When the temp outside does go under 10 degrees my rads have come on pretty hot ... and I m still using 4 units of gas a day that with my supplier is around 1 pound 50 ish a day that is nothing at all !!
Hope this helps
 
Peschy, for your first post you have added to a posting which is over a year old!

The main problem with WC is that people dont seem to understand it and end up fiddling with the controls.

The only way to use it properly is to find out which curve best suites your property and then LEAVE IT ALONE!

Tony

 
thats so true Tony, the other day I installed a weather dependent (no inside sensing) 430... the little old lady (75+) was over the moon that she didn't have to fiddle with it...
 
WC
She obviously hadn't opened a window yet, whereupon her outside-temperature-measurement-only system would have promptly failed to regulate the temperature of the house.

You have to remember that any posts by Alec1 are tainted by his religious attachment to naive theories on which he bases his business. You can fool some of the people some of the time, and if that's a market niche you want to go for, you may be able to make a profit. Alec has posted in the Gas Engineers Only forum that he doesn't actually care whether his customer saves money or not - he's made a sale and that's what counts.
This attitude also prevails of course among manufacturers. They are in business to make money by selling boilers, not to make you warm at lowest cost. Any hopes of altruism are misplaced. They can "stick Weather Comp" on a boiler for next to nothing - it's a £0.20p thermistor on the end of a wire, and some software. Then the marketing department is happy and the sales department pushes it. Any graduate with control engineering as a discipline (such as me), can quickly point out multiple shortcomings. Any experienced heating engineers such as me) will have seen them causing many problems in the field.
Much too much of what's in the Viessmann brochures is nothing short of sales junk. For example they compare an idealised view of their boilers, with something which would have been current 50 years ago, rather than a current, relevant, alternative.
I happen to be in a position to have been able to get feedback from hundreds of installers, including a good number of large companies including British Gas. (I assess RGIs).
The conclusions are very clear.-
A few people with WC, mostly installers, understand how their systems work, with their limitations, and get the best out of them. The best engineers shun many of the false claims made by manufacturers such as Viessmann who specialise in simplistic weather compensation.
Apart from those few:-
Smaller installers don't recommend or like to install weather compensated systems because they don't want the troublesome call-backs when the customer doesn't understand the system, or the system needs adjustment - which is done by experiment. I have to say a large majority of installers (95%+) wouldn't have the slightest clue about any but the very basic controls, and don't care much either. Remember this if you ever need maintenance. They will "make it go", and give you an invoice.
Larger installers have learned to disable or remove all the weather compensation controls they can, and discourage their installation, to the point of refusal. BG are in that group. This is because the customers don't like the results, or the systems are unreliable or poorly designed, aren't compatible with existing heating systems, and on and on.

There remains, as far as I'm aware, no reliable comparison between different systems with a proper scientific method, to show how much, if any, saving is to be made. There are many partial attempts which have shown "a lot" or "a little" or "negative", which can be taken with more or less salt.
The chatter is full of forcibly stated assertions of benefits in longevity and the like. There remains no evidence. There is absolutely no shortage of boilers with “Old technology” which haven’t missed a beat in 30+ years. Again, prove it, sirs.

It is perhaps a pity that the most voluble supporters of a particular widget or mantra are those with vested interests, whose judgment is at best unreliable, at worst plain fraudulent.
Unfortunately the cancer starts early - as soon as an installer has invested a day in being "specially trained" by a manufacturer's Sales indoctrination course, he's inclined to consider himself an expert. Do remember that to legally be “competent” to installer a boiler, a guy needs practically zero knowledge of how it works even in basic terms.. As an assessor I can (I’m afraid) vouch for that.

Please be cautious before being suckered-in by sales patter from the extreme, and voluble, evangelists.
WC might work or you, it might not. It might well fail for one reason or another after some time. It might save you running costs, it might not. You might like the way it works, you might not. And as for finding someone interested and capable to maintain it in a few years time after models have changed – sorry.

DO find out how much extra you're paying for it; now, and in the future.
 

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