If ChrisR had any experience on the vitotronic 200 by installing one
One?
More than I can remember. Some people say they wanted them - ok not a difficulty. (Until you ask V exactly how things work, at which point they clam up, so you can't explain to the customer. The people exposed to the oiks who install the boilers know nothing. I've got as far as being told "it's technical" by V backup staff abroad. It's very easy to trip them up. Then "We don't go into it". Right, I'd say that in their position, because it's baloney.
Some of my customers are way ahead of me in their maths knowledge - and are disgusted by the junk that comes out of supposedly technically advanced Viessmann. I can only remind them it's meant for plumbers.
He basis his understanding on technology developed in the 50s and 60s
Twaddle
and has no real information about the current offer from viessmann and vaillant...
More twaddle. Ask Alec what exactly their wonderful gas saving software does and of course he doesn't have a clue. Ask the manufacturers and they say almost nothing. Yet Alec likes it to be mysterious and "above" other mortals. It's a line of bull__it.
Control theory was mature in the 80's. Practical implementation on myriad applications was done a few years after, with not much more than some tweaks. It doesn't work
really well on a house because of the open-loop stuff, where we only have trv's to help.
The stuff in use today relies on far more than the 50's and 60's which Alec goes on about, more than it needs to, but that's because an outside sensor looks clever and costs almost nothing.
If you can't follow time-variable integral equations and (eg) Laplace transforms , don't bother to look for explanations. Offhand I can only think of about 3 plumbers who can benefit from that explanation, Alec is not one of them. You'd need an engineering degree with a heavy controls bias. I did two of those.
or cruise control/auto pilot?
Sure - those also do not use outside sensors. Because they aren't necessary.
yes chris good point but this is what inside sensors are for
V200 uses an on/off "over temperature" indoors which V are keen to tell you if you talk to them, is a waste of time. Mysterious "software" saving another large percentage of your gas, is invoked - which of course is pathetic rubbish.
Weather comp has been the norm in the colder parts of Europe for decades.
Sure, it's cheap. So?
Even with TRVS and on-off controls other heat sources cause variations in room temperatures, why this is a problem with weather compensation but not conventional controls beats me...
Because the word "weather" means using outside temperature, then leaving the feedback loop open.
If you use only (intelligent, modern... ) internal temperature sensors you see the internal sources of heat/coolth the garden one knows nothing about.
If you rely on internal sensors the outside ones actually don't add anything if you look at the maths. If you want to see some twaddle, look at the supposed advantage of feed-forward control. Some will say it's just what you want in a house. Barking! If you can't see why, your understanding is lacking.
in the commercial/industrial sector which I work, set up and adjusted correctly,the savings from weather compensated systems are huge thats why it's been around for decades
If you compare it with very crude systems, yes of course. But Weather (outside temperature) compensation alone is decades out of date. If you look at control systems in large buildings ( eg large office blocks), you'll find sensors all over them, but one on the wall outside - no, not used for controlling the heating. That went out long ago. I didn't find that out until the last year or so.
All the stuff about how the systems are supposed to work and how they should be better is all very well, but I come back to where I came in. It's pretty irrelevant, because the "target environment" in terms of the people, and the maintenance, (and the technical writing, information, objectivity and on and on) is missing. It's all very LOW quality. The people are LOW quality. The requirement is only to flog boilers. I ask again to illustrate, who are you going to call to maintain your WC system years after they finished making it? You ARE going to have a problem. You
might be able to use the manufacturer, but probably nobody else. Is that what the market wants -not for the most part.
It works for some of the people some of the time
But he percentage is tiny. I asked another 5 installers on assessment today, from 3 companies. Two companies basically knew nothing about WC. The other two people had only taken WC boilers out and put standard ones in. One of those was a manager in his company so he knew what was going on, they're currently putting in about 85 boilers a week in London/SE in private homes, none with WC. Because of their
experience.
I put a Climapro on a GW on Monday. After explaining it to the customer (software professional so not a goon) he asked me to turn the modulation off. I'd have had it on, but for him it was the correct decision.
