Warmfront telling me porkies??!!

[vulcancontinental]

I hope from my previous posts that I give the impression of being a quiet thoughtful fellow with no tendency to mislead or deliberately aggravate but some of the comment here is just sheer rubbish – some is unfortunately true.

I don’t lie. Mind you if you asked a liar the same question he’d give you the same answer so you’ll have to make you own mind up about me.

Most of what’s written here is not my experience of WarmFront (4 years).

WarmFront world is just like your world, it is not perfect. It just is not a perfect world.

Private and local installers are not perfect and do as much if not more ripping off of clients than anybody else. And as much rubbish work. Even BG with their “can’t get parts for this anymore lady” or “ain’t gonna last long, do you want me to get someone round to give you a quote?” routines.

If they or independents got a 92-94% satisfaction return on a survey by MP’s looking to find fault as WF did they would be pleased.

Expertgasman: Can you imagine giving a little old lady or a learning disabled person a voucher for £3500 and a copy of the yellow pages and telling them “go find a local installer to help you spend it” - uckin el, can you imagine the chaos? How many £3,499 jobs would there be before many went into excess.

How does the scheme compete with the local installer? He can work for the scheme as a subby or installer if he’s big enough. More work to be shared round. Those whose boiler has broken down and are prepared to wait six months to get it fixed wouldn’t be his customers anyway.

There are 100 plus installers on the WarmFront Scheme, Eaga own one of them (eagaheat) and they got 32% of the work at maximum. Now much less. The other installers are going in at cost now to keep their men busy. Yes there were installers who took advantage of the scheme; they took advantage of private customers before they went on the scheme, while they were on the scheme and they’re out there still taking advantage of private customers now they’re thrown off the scheme.

Paul Barker: An applicant will get the grant for the house he lives in; if he moves he would get the grant again in the new house. If an eligible person moved into the house he’d just left they wouldn’t get the grant as the heating should have been bought up to spec first time. If the man you know owned two houses and you know he’s done this let WarmFront know. For corruption to prosper it only takes a good man to do nothing.

I survey, I don’t assess whether the person qualifies or not but when I come across an applicant who doesn’t or isn’t living in the house I leave and shop ‘em – easy, done it many times – love it! (Landlords themselves can apply since a recent change but that’s the government’s decision not eaga’s).

How can an assessor manipulate someone’s (a client) eligibility? They either are eligible or are not and they have to show the benefit books. They either want the work done or do not. Lady this very morning, 27 year old Baxi Bermuda working OK. She asks me should she change? I tell here that there’s one moving part in that boiler and the bit that usually fails would cost up to £50 to change. Not one current boiler in my mind, not Vaillant Worcester, Atag, any of them will give her 27 years of service like that Baxi. But what would you have me tell her? Baxi designed the boiler for 15 year life (that’s what they all do and did) it’s done 12 past that, should she stick with it and ignore the opportunity for a new boiler for nothing? She can’t afford to upgrade privately that’s for sure.

If any of the guys here are self employed and needed something for their house but could put it through as a material cost in their books as tax deductable I’d wager many will have. Same as getting a bit of fuel for business use when it’s personal. Take a tax break on vehicles for business use or reclaiming VAT on certain stuff. Same as a pensioner or a single mum getting a boiler. Why should a gas fitter get a new laptop or fancy gear he could live without for a couple more years or a personalised registration plate for a grand or two off as a business tax deductable after a good year?

It’s an imperfect world and at least a lot of people are better off whether it’s worth it or not - 27% of total carbon emissions are from home energy use and WarmFront saves between 11 and 25% of those on each boiler install which the client wouldn’t do off their own backs.

Not saying everything is perfect, just saying it is not all imperfect.

 

[Deleted member 105431]

Vulcan I have respect for you and from your postings I think you are an honest man; but I disagree with you about warmfront.

It's another complete waste of taxpayers money imho, I think free loft/cavity wall insulation for all eligible households would be a much better and cheaper alternative.

 

[Paul Barker]

Vulcan I think i'll look elsewhere than a Warm front employee for my lessons in ethics.

 

[expertgasman]

.
Can you imagine giving a little old lady or a learning disabled person a voucher for £3500 and a copy of the yellow pages and telling them “go find a local installer to help you spend it” - uckin el, can you imagine the chaos? How many £3,499 jobs would there be before many went into excess.

The point is that we would be competing, and most of us would do much more for £3.5K than eaga is doing. Customers aren't (always) stupid, and the market would be open.

How does the scheme compete with the local installer? He can work for the scheme as a subby or installer if he’s big enough.

Most installers are one man bands


Those whose boiler has broken down and are prepared to wait six months to get it fixed wouldn’t be his customers anyway.

Why not? If they'll wait 6 months for eaga, they'll wait for us, if we had a look in


There are 100 plus installers on the WarmFront Scheme, Eaga own one of them (eagaheat) and they got 32% of the work at maximum. Now much less. The other installers are going in at cost now to keep their men busy.

Says who? That big window firm says the same every January, but it's marketing. Why are they (Warmfront installers) going in at cost, either the funding is available or it's not. A firm in the open market MAY do work at cost to keep going in the short term, but the Warmfront isn't open

]

 

[vulcancontinental]

Vulcan I have respect for you and from your postings I think you are an honest man; but I disagree with you about warmfront.

It's another complete waste of taxpayers money imho, I think free loft/cavity wall insulation for all eligible households would be a much better and cheaper alternative.

That's kind of you and if I had found it like others I wouldn't be there or stayed there. I know other regions have many problems but in this region it very good.

I do not believe it's a complete waste and I agree with you completely about insulation but in some WarmFront lofts the fitters have to take the lagging out to even see where to walk and work there's so much. I think it's reached the limit now. Wall and loft insulation is free under the scheme anyway and several others from the energy suppliers.

I know eaga are trialling an insulative render as there are millions of solid wall houses that simply cannot be insulated effectively yet without loosing 100mm off the inside room sizes. I can't wait as it costs me a fortune to heat mine.

I have taken on board everything you and the others have said about Icos's and Isar's. Although I never see a problem and the fitters don't complain about them we don't see them two years down the line like you do. Trouble is I cannot always choose anything else.

I just tell it as I see it. With Ideals I listen and learn but with WarmFront I've done well over 5,000 jobs and four years - on this I know from my own experience.

 

[vulcancontinental]

Vulcan I think i'll look elsewhere than a Warm front employee for my lessons in ethics.

I hope you choose carefully and well. Good luck.

 

[lawrance]

how many of those 5000 had boilers which were working perfectly fine and under 15 years old?

I think I know the answer to that already, you would not still have a job otherwise.

 

[vulcancontinental]

Can you imagine giving a little old lady or a learning disabled person a voucher for £3500 and a copy of the yellow pages and telling them “go find a local installer to help you spend it” - uckin el, can you imagine the chaos? How many £3,499 jobs would there be before many went into excess.

The point is that we would be competing, and most of us would do much more for £3.5K than eaga is doing. Customers aren't (always) stupid, and the market would be open.

Look what you've written there; 'we would do more for £3500 than eaga is doing' Immediately and probably unconsciously you're valuing the job to the maximum the grant will allow, not doing what is necessary for the spec at the lowest cost. It's human nature.

Customers at eaga end of the market are often not worldy wise and would be ripe for exploitation. I've met thousands. Not all but enough to cause heartache. Eaga's main problem is trying to get the installers to work and adhere to the spec, if there were thousands of strong and independently minded installers it would be worse. One customer saying Fred gave my neighbour this and Tom didn't give that to me. That's only a small sample of what they fear but it's true I'm afraid. Another would be materials and returns as eaga buy all the gear and they'd have to monitor thousands of purchases and returns from different installers - anyway they don't think it would work without all the extra management costing as much or more than looking after a few hundred installers.

It's so bad they've taken the surveying from the installers and employed their own direct to try to achieve consistency, hence me losing the work soon.

How does the scheme compete with the local installer? He can work for the scheme as a subby or installer if he’s big enough.

Most installers are one man bands.

Yes, he either subs to the firms that are signed on or does the work they cannot do because they are working on the scheme. Greater number of boiler changes equals more work divided between a finite number of installers. Most, and I do mean most of the people I see would not be having boilers changed without the grant. You can't cheat the numbers, you can twist them but they can't be cheated.

On a light-hearted numbers note, if an alien came to earth and looked on the forums they'd think Vaillant's were the worst boiler because there are more posts about them than any others. It isn't so but you could twist it that way.

Those whose boiler has broken down and are prepared to wait six months to get it fixed wouldn’t be his customers anyway.

Why not? If they'll wait 6 months for eaga, they'll wait for us, if we had a look in.

Not as many as you'd think; another lady today, single mum, two kids, in her forties, not a bean. No boiler since January, no way could she afford a new one. I had one of the first surveys I did burst into tears, run across the room and hug me. First woman other than my wife to do that for years. I was really choked how hard times are for some people and this was four years ago.

There are 100 plus installers on the WarmFront Scheme, Eaga own one of them (eagaheat) and they got 32% of the work at maximum. Now much less. The other installers are going in at cost now to keep their men busy.

Says who? That big window firm says the same every January, but it's marketing. Why are they (Warmfront installers) going in at cost, either the funding is available or it's not. A firm in the open market MAY do work at cost to keep going in the short term, but the Warmfront isn't open

Oh that's common knowledge. The new system posts a survey on a website and installers bid for the job. Lowest price wins. A big local firm to me just pulled off the scheme as they couldn't compete and eagaheat can't live with it as they have overheads the same as BG. Smaller companies are killing them every time. Still the same companies that have committed to the scheme however, it's not open to everybody. This also isn't across the whole of the country either so what happens depends on the location.

I will say this; if eaga thought for a second that there was a manageable way of using one man bands and get them to work to a spec they'd drop every big installer in a heartbeat; no question. Money rules and all companies took a drop of around 18% I think in the rates recently. All passed onto the fitters, management etc. Don't like it - leave the scheme, bye.

 

[expertgasman]

Look what you've written there; 'we would do more for £3500 than eaga is doing' Immediately and probably unconsciously you're valuing the job to the maximum the grant will allow, not doing what is necessary for the spec at the lowest cost. It's human nature.

No, from what my customers tell me, and some of the paper work I've seen, eaga (and to be fair, I've only seen eaga stuff), charge to the max, and do as little as possible. I used the 3.5k number as I understand that that is the max grant. I certainly wouldn't upgrade a system, charge £3.5k, and still leave the client with no rad in the lounge (a recent sighting)


Customers at eaga end of the market are often not worldy wise and would be ripe for exploitation.

We all work for vulnerable folk on a regular basis, and only a minority take advantage. There is also no reason why, say, the entitlement asssesor couldn't be tasked, for example, to monitor completed jobs.

Eaga's main problem is trying to get the installers to work and adhere to the spec,
I don't know the rates, but I'm guessing the independant installers aren't getting the lions share of the available funds, so possibly aren't well motivated (discuss?)

if there were thousands of strong and independently minded installers it would be worse. One customer saying Fred gave my neighbour this and Tom didn't give that to me.
There ARE 1000's of strong and independant installers, we are just being sidetracked in favour of the likes of eaga. And your clients DO bitch about what they can't get, but a neighbour did.


That's only a small sample of what they fear but it's true I'm afraid. Another would be materials and returns as eaga buy all the gear and they'd have to monitor thousands of purchases and returns from different installers

I think you've missed my point. The Govt. could issue the householder with a voucher. They then use it as cash with an indy installer, who claims the cash of the govt. body assigned to oversee the scheme. The installer would buy their materials. We do it every day, you know!


It's so bad they've taken the surveying from the installers and employed their own direct to try to achieve consistency, hence me losing the work soon.

How does the scheme compete with the local installer? He can work for the scheme as a subby or installer if he’s big enough.

Most installers are one man bands.

Most, and I do mean most of the people I see would not be having boilers changed without the grant.

They would still have the grant, but get more for it!

Those whose boiler has broken down and are prepared to wait six months to get it fixed wouldn’t be his customers anyway.

Why not? If they'll wait 6 months for eaga, they'll wait for us, if we had a look in.

Not as many as you'd think; another lady today, single mum, two kids, in her forties, not a bean. No boiler since January, no way could she afford a new one.

Gawd. Again, they would still have the grant, but a better job!


There are 100 plus installers on the WarmFront Scheme, Eaga own one of them (eagaheat) and they got 32% of the work at maximum. Now much less. The other installers are going in at cost now to keep their men busy.


I will say this; if eaga thought for a second that there was a manageable way of using one man bands and get them to work to a spec


There is a manageable way. Give the client the grant and let them find a trusted local installer. Eaga fat cats can then apply to administer the scheme.

On a £3.5K funded job, how much would the installer receive from eaga?

 

[vulcancontinental]

how many of those 5000 had boilers which were working perfectly fine and under 15 years old?

I think I know the answer to that already, you would not still have a job otherwise.

OK Lawrance, if you think you know the answer, how many?

Why would I not still have a job anyway?

I would, if you wanted me to, go back and look through any weeks surveys to find out. You pick the week, any week from July 2009 to Sept this year (2009 because we started recording the ages of the boilers we were looking at then). I could look before then but the ages weren't logged so carefully, still you have around 56 weeks to choose from.

For fun I just looked at the most recent 37 surveys I have by my desk. Do you think you know the numbers for these as well?

I've got them here in front of me, give it your best shot.

How many of the 37

Decided to stay with the band C or lower efficiency boiler they have (we, the client and me after a chat)

less than 10 years old?

10-15 years old?

15-20 years old?

20-25 years old?

25 - 30 years old?

30 plus?

no heating system at all?

I.D.'s ?

Couldn't tell you if this will be representative of every week but I imagine it wouldn't be far out. I was surprised myself.

 

[londonboy]

Vulcan may I ask which region your based?

 

[vulcancontinental]

Vulcan may I ask which region your based?

See messages londonboy

 

[Paul Barker]

Vulcan I think i'll look elsewhere than a Warm front employee for my lessons in ethics.

I hope you choose carefully and well. Good luck.

I hope you choose a more ethical company to work for, good luck.

 

[Paul Barker]

I am dislexic and can't tell who said what in the quoted text.

When quoting text pls use the quote option and if you need to respond to individual portions pls copy end quote to the end of the block you want to comment on and then also insert quote too the start of the next bloxk you wish to comment on, and so on.

More work, but it is a means of communication. to minds like mine you are no longer communicating.

 

[vulcancontinental]

Expertgasman in plain text, me in bold. Hope this works and is understandable.

No, from what my customers tell me, and some of the paper work I've seen, eaga (and to be fair, I've only seen eaga stuff), charge to the max, and do as little as possible. I used the 3.5k number as I understand that that is the max grant. I certainly wouldn't upgrade a system, charge £3.5k, and still leave the client with no rad in the lounge (a recent sighting)

eaga do NO work they run the scheme and hand the work out. Contractors do the work. The basic spec calls for a radiator in the lounge which should provide sufficient heat on it's own without any fire or other form of heat in the room. Not to spec, call eaga to get the contractor back. FYI there are only three rooms that have to be heated, the main living room, the applicant's bedroom and room containing the roomstat (normally but not always the hall).



We all work for vulnerable folk on a regular basis, and only a minority take advantage. There is also no reason why, say, the entitlement assessor couldn't be tasked, for example, to monitor completed jobs.

In the past the assessor checked eligibility only. Now the assessor does a technical survey also in most areas of the country. Every heating job is inspected by an inspector from WarmSure (used to be from a different company) visually for compliance to regs and spec afterwards. On 10 or 13% of installs he should check cleanliness, inhibitor levels and benchmark figures etc. Remember this is a different independent contractor who inspects, not eaga or the contractor who installs.


I don't know the rates, but I'm guessing the independent installers aren't getting the lions share of the available funds, so possibly aren't well motivated (discuss?)

Every job is price per day labour only. Materials are bought by central purchasing but ordered by the contractor. The inspector checks for goods ordered against good fitted (major items). Rates are the same for all installers. Iguana, now eagaheat were not allowed to determine any rates to avoid the possibility of favouritism, they work to the same rates that the contractors submitted and agreed on or they don’t work.


There ARE 1000's of strong and independant installers, we are just being sidetracked in favour of the likes of eaga. And your clients DO **** about what they can't get, but a neighbour did.

As an example, a job can have supplements added for additional work, say a vertical flue instead of a balanced flue which is part of the basic job. Many contractors would pick this option instead of putting a BF in to get the job value increased. The client doesn’t know this of course. Before you start slagging off eagaheat their absolute policy is to try to keep the fitters off the roof if at all possible. I just heard yesterday they’re not even letting them up there at all now but calling in roofers to fit slates and terminals etc. H&S.


I think you've missed my point. The Govt. could issue the householder with a voucher. They then use it as cash with an indy installer, who claims the cash of the govt. body assigned to oversee the scheme. The installer would buy their materials. We do it every day, you know!

The contractors order the materials; they do not pay for them. Eaga I guess for reasons of bulk purchase terms, buy the gear. Eaga contractors are labour only.

They would still have the grant, but get more for it!

No, the grant is not there to be spent up to the max. The work must be to bring the install to the minimum spec then stop; if it’s say £1000 good, if it’s £3500 so be it.

Not as many as you'd think; another lady today, single mum, two kids, in her forties, not a bean. No boiler since January, no way could she afford a new one.
Gawd. Again, they would still have the grant, but a better job!

Have you never seen rubbish work by a local independent installer? Do you not think it happens? If there were dozens of £3500 cheques waiving around under the noses of installers every short course Johnny with his ACS would become immediately a trusted reputable local installer. Eaga would then have to sort and manage thousands of independents rather than hundreds of contractors. Can you not see the logistical problem this would create and the cost of management would rocket.


I will say this; if eaga thought for a second that there was a manageable way of using one man bands and get them to work to a spec

There is a manageable way. Give the client the grant and let them find a trusted local installer. Eaga fat cats can then apply to administer the scheme.

eaga does administer the scheme, they always have, that’s ALL they do. What’s the difficulty in understanding this? They pass the clients details onto contractors who have signed up to do the work. Eaga does NOT do any work. Eagaheat, formerly Iguana does, but they work to the same rates the contractors settled on and ALL work is passed out in agreed and audited proportions.

On a £3.5K funded job, how much would the installer receive from eaga?

the installer receives a 1 day and 2 day or a 3 day rate depending on the work involved. There is also a rate for a full heating (combi and 5 or 6). That’s it. There is a list of supplementary sums for say a vertical flue or an increased gas run or a new cylinder converting gravity to pumped primaries. Eaga’s problem is making sure what they want is done to spec and no more.

Hope this helps.