Why don't lamps come with a 1 amp fuse in the plugs?
- Thread starter eveares
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I suspect that BAS meant "the standard requires only that it be capable of" - just a subtle moving of the word "only" which changes the meaning.
I'm sure you're right - but I bet he would have been only too quick to take me to task if I had mis-positioned a word (with a resultant change of meaning) in that fashion, so ....
Kind Regards, John
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WOW, the posts have exploded
Did not think about that, and I would not want a fuse what over heated and damaged the plug but did not blow.
As long as cables and trailing sockets,etc... are designed for this extra current required to blow a fuse, all should be safe. In reality, a lot of stuff may not be.
What really gets me is when you see a factory installed 13 amp fuse in a plug wired to 0.75mm flex!
Did not think about that, and I would not want a fuse what over heated and damaged the plug but did not blow.
As long as cables and trailing sockets,etc... are designed for this extra current required to blow a fuse, all should be safe. In reality, a lot of stuff may not be.
What really gets me is when you see a factory installed 13 amp fuse in a plug wired to 0.75mm flex!
2nd, actually - I too miscounted, (but not by as muchThird time lucky
).No, 3rd was right ... I was talking about our combined efforts - mine having been the first of the 'failures'2nd, actually - I too miscounted, (but not by as muchThird time lucky
Kind Regards, John
It does change the meaning, a matter I've tried to get others to grasp in the past. However, putting to one side for a moment the question of the magnitude of the current, I'm afraid your change does make the statement incorrect. Or less correct.
Yes, you could argue that "the standard requires that it only be capable of carrying 10A" is saying that that is all that the standard requires (i.e. that it has no other requirements for e.g. impact resistance, fire resistance, dimensions etc). But in context that argument could be seen as a tad perverse.
However "the standard requires only that it be capable of" is much more explicitly saying that the only thing the standard requires is that it can carry 10A. "Only" there is qualifying "the standard requires". It's not quite as explicit as "the standard only requires" would be, but it's close.
We neither of us got it right. I think I was closer
, but really what I should have written was "the standard requires that it be able to carry a maximum current of only 10A". Or something like "in respect of current carrying capacity the standard only requires that it be capable of carrying 10A", in order to make it clear that "only" refers to the current its required to carry, not the gamut of the standard.Yes, I'm sure that whatever the wording is it won't be "capable of carrying 10A..", or indeed any variation. I'm also sure, that whatever the wording is, the "requirement" will be that it be "capable" of carrying something >10A without going into meltdown, of becoming too hot to touch, and so on, in just the same way that BS 1363 "requires" a plug to be "capable" of carrying 14A (13 x 1.06, rounded up??) without ditto.
But none of any of this changes the fact that IEC60329 C13/14 connectors are rated at only 10A, which is why the makers of pre-formed leads state that rating on their product.
And now for something completely different.
I wanted to check, in my last post, the 14A value for the test current which plugs have to be able to pass without going manky, so I looked at my copy of BS 1363.
And lo...
Does that imply that the rated current might legitimately be something other than 13A?
The examples are all 13A, but again, does that imply that the rated current might legitimately be something other than 13A?
And there's this:
Elsewhere we read
so maybe you can't make a rewireable plug rated at <13A. But a non-rewireable one?
Maybe there is.
I wanted to check, in my last post, the 14A value for the test current which plugs have to be able to pass without going manky, so I looked at my copy of BS 1363.
And lo...
Does that imply that the rated current might legitimately be something other than 13A?
The examples are all 13A, but again, does that imply that the rated current might legitimately be something other than 13A?
And there's this:
Elsewhere we read
so maybe you can't make a rewireable plug rated at <13A. But a non-rewireable one?
I respectfully disagree. You have come up with a different interpretation again of what the statements mean. John took the literal interpretation of "the standard requires that it only be capable of carrying 10A" as meaning that the standard required that it can 10A but no more.It does change the meaning, a matter I've tried to get others to grasp in the past. However, putting to one side for a moment the question of the magnitude of the current, I'm afraid your change does make the statement incorrect. Or less correct.
Yes, you could argue that "the standard requires that it only be capable of carrying 10A" is saying that that is all that the standard requires (i.e. that it has no other requirements for e.g. impact resistance, fire resistance, dimensions etc). But in context that argument could be seen as a tad perverse.
However "the standard requires only that it be capable of" is much more explicitly saying that the only thing the standard requires is that it can carry 10A. "Only" there is qualifying "the standard requires". It's not quite as explicit as "the standard only requires" would be, but it's close.
We neither of us got it right. I think I was closer
My moving of the word only changed that to say that the standard only requires it to be capable of carrying 10A - inferring that it may well be capable of carrying more. But as you say, that too is open to misinterpretation - I can't be bothered looking back to see the context and whether we were only talking about current handling capacity, which would affect the interpretation.
So I call "draw". Isn't the English language a wonderful thing
I agree totally, and have never suggested otherwise. My comments were nothing to do with 'what is stated on the product' but, rather, were a response to Simon's apparent suggestion (at least, implication) that the connectors being rated at 10A was a reason for having a 10A fuse. As I've said repeatedly, I'm not aware of any requirement to 'protect' a connector with an OPD - and, even if there were, I don't know whether a "10A fuse" would be adequate to 'protect' a "10A connector".
Kind Regards, John
Yes, we've discussed that a few times before, and I don't think anyone has really come up with an explanation as to why (given Table 4F3A of BS7671) that Table seems to indicate that that it is acceptable for 0.75 or 1.0 mm² flex to be protected by a 13A fuse. Mind you, Table 4F3A itself seems to indicate surprisingly low CCCs for flexible cables - e.g. 10A for 1mm² flex, as compared with 17A for 1mm² T+E in free air (Method E).
Kind Regards, John
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I have just been tidying up Christmas stuff including a hot plate used to keep food hot on the table. I looked at the lead.
Marked 0.75mm with 10A socket with hot notch in it feels like butyl cable with a 13A plug with manufacturers sticker still on it saying fitted with 13A fuse.
The hot plate rated 1100W a Lidi Special Silvercrest so may be German standard? But there is no question design current is 4.8A so cable, plugs and fuse are all within what the design required.
Where the problem arises is where that same lead also fits soup maker, kettle, PC, printer, bread maker, and sewing machine so in our house hold it could easy get swapped around. Although the notch means designed for a hot appliance I have always considered notch = 13A no notch 5A as in the beginning the sockets without a notch arrived with IT equipment.
Looking at a non notched lead marked "XD RVV WGX3C PVC WIRE GP" from internet search it would seem those numbers mean something but I will guess some USA standard. I will guess 14AWG which makes it 2 mm² from what I can gather.
But 13A plug is marked "5A" and fitted with a 5A fuse. The fuse marked "BS 1382 Made in England" but plug moulding not good enough to read anything but ATA what every the internet says I would only use it for light loads to be fair it is marked 5A.
But most people are not electricians and if it fits then they will use it. I have seen many plugs marked fitted with 3A or fitted with 5A fuse but have not considered this as a maximum but just information.
I now think back on all the leads I have tested when doing inspection and testing of in-service electrical equipment. I have never inspected the plug to see if any 5A mark on it. Fig 8 would be 3A and kettle type would check it's a fuse but would leave with what ever size I found fitted.
Until this thread I was unaware you could get a 13A plug designated as 5A.
Did I ?
I think the question was why a lead might be labelled as 10A when it's got cable rated for a 13A fuse. If one of the connectors is only suitable up to 10A then it would seem reasonable for the lead to be labelled as a "10A" lead.
Because that table describes test conditions, and since 3A is the only other preferred value for BS 1362 fuses, if you want to test a pre-wired plug & cable rated at 6 or 10A then you have to use a 13A fuse.
As long as you don't notice the reference to 5A fuses that explanation is perfect. But even if you admit the existence of 5A fuses you'd still need 13A ones to run tests at 7A or 11A.
1) That table is for cables operating at 60°C, not 70.
2) You don't have the possibility of T&E (used correctly) supporting a mass of 5kg. It would seem reasonable that mechanical stresses on cables with insulation softened by running at 70°C might be a problem.
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