Ooooh!
I'm just guessing here, but maybe this isn't your average domestic UFH installation?
I'm just guessing here, but maybe this isn't your average domestic UFH installation?
wiring for CH
- Thread starter debzo
- Start date
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Ignoring your other comments and questions for the moment, this is the most important aspect of your problem.
Provided the cost of the installation was less than £5,000 you can use the small claims procedure, which will cost you no more than £120, which you will recover from the other side.
Your first port of call should be Trading Standards aka Consumer Direct Tel 08454 04 05 06.
I know you want to get the system up and running, but if you do anything yourself you will damage your case against the installers; and you have a very good one.
If a person or company contracted with you, two years ago, to install a working underfloor heating system using the Delta controller, and you still do not have a working system, then they are in breach of contract and you can sue them.
Provided the cost of the installation was less than £5,000 you can use the small claims procedure, which will cost you no more than £120, which you will recover from the other side.
Your first port of call should be Trading Standards aka Consumer Direct Tel 08454 04 05 06.
I know you want to get the system up and running, but if you do anything yourself you will damage your case against the installers; and you have a very good one.
D_Hailsham
thanks for your thoughts here re:- my rights etc., - unfortunately when I said originally this was " a long standing headache "- it has been since 1998, it was re-designed etc., in 2000, last dealings with the company on any paperwork is 2002 - so i have lost the 6 year rule on statutory right a while back. I have since then tried to find other electricians and heating engineers to complete the installation. Some minor work was done by one electrician who installed some wiring for the sensors then saying he would be back the next day after studying the installation instructions for the delta - disappeared off the face of the earth, could never get hold of him again, nor get the instructions back! I know I should have tackled this before now, but I have been really busy working away from home for last 4 years, and for want of another expression " on the promise " to another heating chap for the last 18 months or so - who basically keeps putting me off due to other work commitments, and my not being back home when he was available!! I have now decided he really probably doesn't know/want to do the job either - especially since so much stuff is in German, and to be honest until you gave me the Ippec link for the manuals, no-one had a clue to interpret the German instructions on the unit. Hence my resolve to rely on numero uno! and try and sort it myself - well, with as much help as I can get from you and this forum too!
thanks for your thoughts here re:- my rights etc., - unfortunately when I said originally this was " a long standing headache "- it has been since 1998, it was re-designed etc., in 2000, last dealings with the company on any paperwork is 2002 - so i have lost the 6 year rule on statutory right a while back. I have since then tried to find other electricians and heating engineers to complete the installation. Some minor work was done by one electrician who installed some wiring for the sensors then saying he would be back the next day after studying the installation instructions for the delta - disappeared off the face of the earth, could never get hold of him again, nor get the instructions back! I know I should have tackled this before now, but I have been really busy working away from home for last 4 years, and for want of another expression " on the promise " to another heating chap for the last 18 months or so - who basically keeps putting me off due to other work commitments, and my not being back home when he was available!! I have now decided he really probably doesn't know/want to do the job either - especially since so much stuff is in German, and to be honest until you gave me the Ippec link for the manuals, no-one had a clue to interpret the German instructions on the unit. Hence my resolve to rely on numero uno! and try and sort it myself - well, with as much help as I can get from you and this forum too!
So it's Plan B then! Back to you earlier post.
You will need a four core heat resistant cable. B&Q sell them, Tower brand. Brown to Ls, Blue to Ns, Green/yellow to Earth. The fourth core, usually yellow, will connect to the Lr terminal of the boiler.
Did it to help me understand what was going on.
All external connections are made to the WG100, not directly to the Delta
No. But I would be consistent, i.e use the same colour when connecting to the same terminal.
This is where I confess to getting lost.
1. Did the installers provide a wiring diagram or a layout diagram?
2. What make and model is the mixing valve?
3. Is the mixing valve connected as in my diagram, i.e the middle connection connects between valve and pump?
4. Is the mixing valve wired up - if so how?
5. Can you confirm that the two room thermostats are not wired up.
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o.k - in the enclosure there are two terminal strips which are then connected to the pre-wired plug in connectors to the Delta, so once these are wired through to the wiring junction box for the heating controls, we should be nearly there, hopefully.
Only the layout one I added to the my images - there has never been a wiring diagram for the system altogether, except on the original manual (in German) that you so kindly found again on Ippec's page. I assumed the layout on page 9 on WG10 and Delta gives us that clue?
Not sure what you mean here - will photo and upload image !
Siemens PSI300 - diagram on it looks to me like it DIVERTS as an option not MIX - but I am not au fait with controls!
4. Not wired up - manually open.
5. Room stats only within their own housing - not linked through, probably have to take them off to see what has been put where, but it is 3-core and earth to each stat.
Yup - I know the feeling
Thanks so much for your help so far, this is the furthest any of this has got. Though the more I understand the system, the more I am convinced Ippec totally over designed what should have been a straight forward UFH to both floors with optional towel rail, and rad in porch! Still, as my Nan used to say - if at first you don't succeed, try... try ... and try again!
Getting the hang of this "quote " thing now!
Ah! - the little gray matter's light bulb has come on now! yep the middle is connected between valve and pump, but if you look at the image I posted, you will see what I mean by I think its a diverter. Never noticed this before!
Thanks for the new pics and other replies.
I don't recognize the Seimens number you quoted and the only reference on the web is your post! What other numbers are there on the valve? I can't make them out from your pic.
How big, (cm x cm) is the layout diagram you took a pic of? Some of it is missing so, if possible, a scanned version would be better.
The layout diagram shows a second 3-way valve in the 1st floor circuit. I had wondered why your diagram did not show one. Can you confirm it is there?
I don't recognize the Seimens number you quoted and the only reference on the web is your post! What other numbers are there on the valve? I can't make them out from your pic.
How big, (cm x cm) is the layout diagram you took a pic of? Some of it is missing so, if possible, a scanned version would be better.
The layout diagram shows a second 3-way valve in the 1st floor circuit. I had wondered why your diagram did not show one. Can you confirm it is there?
Hi
MAV-322
It is an A3 sheet size of diagram is not to scale but measures 32cms w x 21 cms ht, the only bits missing are the left side of the page, I think, abd only show the layouts for H & C secondary supplies to the bathroom, kitchen, utility and en-suite - showing Ippec's preferred supply manifolds as opposed to standard plumbing Tee's. There are no further valves at all here.
Not sent and not installed, when asked why it had not ben sent, they decided it wasn't really necessary! Though when I think it through - if this mixer is intended to reduce the temperature of the UFH flow to the manifold - then why not? unless it can be reduced by other means? -the only other control for 1st floor is the room stat. I thought I had tagged this on the drawing I posted - sorry if not! It is easy enough to put one in if better, since all the pipe-work is contained within and easily accessible in the cylinder / control cupboard.
On the Ippec web page I found wiring diagram for Delta23b/w100 control for UFH & radiators - would this be the way my system should be wired? I will put in on my images. It shows a digital programmable room stat on 1st floor to control radiators, and I wonder if that was what the last design guy I spoke with at Ippec was thinking when advising no 3-port to 1st floor!!! I will never know now of course , but wondered if this diagram gets us closer to a solution?
thanks again.
MAV-322
It is an A3 sheet size of diagram is not to scale but measures 32cms w x 21 cms ht, the only bits missing are the left side of the page, I think, abd only show the layouts for H & C secondary supplies to the bathroom, kitchen, utility and en-suite - showing Ippec's preferred supply manifolds as opposed to standard plumbing Tee's. There are no further valves at all here.
Not sent and not installed, when asked why it had not ben sent, they decided it wasn't really necessary! Though when I think it through - if this mixer is intended to reduce the temperature of the UFH flow to the manifold - then why not? unless it can be reduced by other means? -the only other control for 1st floor is the room stat. I thought I had tagged this on the drawing I posted - sorry if not! It is easy enough to put one in if better, since all the pipe-work is contained within and easily accessible in the cylinder / control cupboard.
On the Ippec web page I found wiring diagram for Delta23b/w100 control for UFH & radiators - would this be the way my system should be wired? I will put in on my images. It shows a digital programmable room stat on 1st floor to control radiators, and I wonder if that was what the last design guy I spoke with at Ippec was thinking when advising no 3-port to 1st floor!!! I will never know now of course , but wondered if this diagram gets us closer to a solution?
thanks again.
Hi Norcon
sorry for my ignorance here - but by this description I understand it to mean the flow is diverted to either the return of the UFH or the return to boiler? So that would mean it's not mixing the water to reduce temp to UFH? which would mean the valve would need changing?
sorry for my ignorance here - but by this description I understand it to mean the flow is diverted to either the return of the UFH or the return to boiler? So that would mean it's not mixing the water to reduce temp to UFH? which would mean the valve would need changing?
D-Hailsham
Still trying to get an image uploaded for Delta wiring - been "uploading " for over an hour now! Don't know whether it is my end or this, usually been o.k before. But if it won't do it - the schedule is on page 13 of the manual.
Still trying to get an image uploaded for Delta wiring - been "uploading " for over an hour now! Don't know whether it is my end or this, usually been o.k before. But if it won't do it - the schedule is on page 13 of the manual.
first of all, norcon I I'm ignoring you,not that I have any thing against you but because of my damn peepers I pressed ignore instead of quote
so if you got some kind of notification from diynot dont worry about it mate I'll un-ignore you when I figure out how!right back to the post the three way valve shown in the drawing should be a diverter valve as norcon has noticed not a mid position as marked on drawing
In operation it disconnects the UFH flow fron the boler so the already heated return water recirculates in the UFH loop untill the pipe stat senses that more heated water from the boiler is required
Mattie
Hi
so I don't have to change it then? and it is all fitted correctly?
There is a photo of the valve in my images showing the valve with middle port fitted to the pipework between the 2-port valve and the pump to the ground floor UFH.
Hi
so I don't have to change it then? and it is all fitted correctly?
There is a photo of the valve in my images showing the valve with middle port fitted to the pipework between the 2-port valve and the pump to the ground floor UFH.
Not sure what this means! are you saying it is flowing back to the UFH flow from the UFH return, and therefore the pipe stat tells the 2-port valve to close the flow to UFH? 'Cos the arrows imply it flows away from boiler flow to either return from UFH or back to return to the rest of the system on the return pipework. Bizarre - I need a glass of wine to get clarity on this
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