Intermediate Switch(es) Required?

In my house, bought earlier this year, I have a first floor landing light.

This first floor landing light can be turned on and off on the first floor landing, the ground floor and the second floor, so 3 places in total.

I have a style of switch faceplates throughout the house that is consistent, all apart from the first floor landing light switch that is on the first floor. That single switch is a different style to the switches throughout the house, including the other switches for this first floor light that are on the ground floor and second floor - they are also the same as the rest of the house.

I would like to change the first floor switch to be the same style at the rest of the house. I thought the previous owner had just failed to find the same style or had been lazy... but now I'm thinking it might be 'cos it needs to be an intermediate switch and an appropriate same style switch just could not be obtained.

If the first floor light is controlled from 3 floors, would there not need to be this special intermediate switch on the ground floor, first floor and second floor?

Or is an intermediate switch not really required on any floor?

I was speaking to an Electrician about taking on the job for me the other day and he did not seem to have any concerns... I told him I could get the same style switch and he said nothing about me needing a special intermediate switch at all, even though I'd described the layout just as I have here. This makes me wonder whether he would not be able to do the job on the day if I had bought a 2-way switch of the same style, or whether my concern about needing an intermediate switch is baseless.

Also... it got me wondering about doing it myself! Eek! I can turn the lights off at the circuit board, I can test for power with a funky screwdriver, I can take a photo of the wiring as-is and I can emulate that (hopefully).

Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.

There are problems getting switches in certain stiles and configurations. My bedroom I could buy a three gang two way switch but not a three gang intermediate but could get a two gang intermediate so had to wire so the intermediate was at bed head not at the door.

There seems generally more options with grid switches but general rule is take the most complex switch then find a stile you like with that switch in the range so all others can match.

As the old Tenby switches and sockets in my house fail I have to replace with more modern and so best I can do is get a room with matching doing whole house would be too expensive.

Basic fact an intermediate switch can be used as two way or on/off and two way can also be used for on/off so you always do the intermediate first then match rest to that switch.

For multiple location switching you need 2x two-way switches and as many intermediate switches as you have intermediate locations. So, if there are 5 locations controlling a common lighting system you require 2 x 2-way switches and 3 x intermediate switches.

Throw away the funky driver they are just slightly better than useless.

Before you dismantle anything take photos of all switches and mark all cores as to exactly what they are connected to on the existing switches. Then if things go wrong you can back-track to where you were when it worked.

Ah, so the switch on the ground floor is a 2-way switch, the switch on the second floor is a 2-way switch and the final - different styled - switch on the first floor is the single intermediate switch that this setup needs?

Hence, the challenge for me (which is the same challenge the previous owner might have had) is to get an (one) intermediate switch in the same style as the existing 2-way switches.

Can you not buy an intermediate switch of any style - even a basic piece of white plastic switch - then pull out the connectivity box on the back and fit it onto the other plate? Thereby giving you a means of getting an intermediate switch in any style you need? It seems the connectivity box on the back is the most important thing... or is a switch a complete 'thing' that you cannot (or should not) disassemble?

dpm_dpmartin said:

If the first floor light is controlled from 3 floors, would there not need to be this special intermediate switch on the ground floor, first floor and second floor?

Or is an intermediate switch not really required on any floor?

Click to expand...

Neither.

You'll need 2 x 2-way switches and 1 x intermediate.

//www.diynot.com/wiki/Electrics:Intermediate

Electrically the intermediate goes between the 2-ways, physically it can be anywhere. In my bedroom the ceiling light is controlled by an intermediate by the door and a 2-way architrave switch each side of the bed.

This makes me wonder whether he would not be able to do the job on the day if I had bought a 2-way switch of the same style, or whether my concern about needing an intermediate switch is baseless.

Click to expand...

No and no.

Also... it got me wondering about doing it myself! Eek!

Click to expand...

Yes, but you really, really REALLY should only do do on the basis of genuinely understanding how it all works and what you are doing, not by simply copying what's there or by following instructions to put-this-wire-in-that-hole without actually understanding why.

• http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=electrical+circuits+101
  
  
• http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=multimeter+101
  
  
• http://kevinboone.net/electricity.html
  
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20080213151445/http://www.kevinboone.com/domesticinstallations.html
  
  
• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:lighting
  
  
• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:books
  
  
• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics
  
  

I can test for power with a funky screwdriver

Click to expand...

A multimeter, at least, is an essential tool to have if you want to work on your electrics. It is just as important to have that correct tool as it is to have screwdrivers to use on screws instead of the point of a vegetable knife, wirecutters to use instead of nail scissors, wirestrippers to use instead of teeth, and so on.

Neon screwdrivers are questionable from a safety POV as they use your body as a current path, and they are unreliable - to safely check for voltage you must use a 2-pole tester, such as a proper voltage indicator or a multimeter.

This looks ideal for a household starter set - multimeter, voltage indicator and dedicated continuity tester, all in a handy case: http://www.amprobe.eu/de_DE/showproduct/115/Junior-Set/

PDF brochure: http://www.amprobe.eu/de_DE/downloadfile/115/beschreibung_1/

All in German, unfortunately, as is the blurb on each product:

Multimeter: http://www.amprobe.eu/de_DE/showproductdata/487/Hexagon_55/

Voltage indicator: http://www.amprobe.eu/de_DE/showproduct/1672/2100-Alpha/

Continuity tester: http://www.amprobe.eu/de_DE/showproduct/481/TESTFIX/

but it should be available in the UK - the company is now owned by Fluke, contact them (http://www.fluke.co.uk) for info on where to buy.

If not, there are sellers in other parts of Europe: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=amprobe+("junior-set"+OR+1333)

Right now the English specs are still lurking on the Internet Time Machine from when Beha was an independent company:

http://web.archive.org/web/20060920022629/http://www.beha.com/files_uk/multimeter/93549.pdf


Also see another discussion here: //www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26282 It's a few years old, so specific model number advice may be obsolete (and prices will be higher), but the generic advice is still sound.

As with most things in life, but particularly with anything that will go anywhere near mains voltage, I would strongly advise against buying stuff on eBay from Chinese sellers just because it's cheap.

I can take a photo of the wiring as-is and I can emulate that (hopefully)

Click to expand...

See above re simply copying, but photos or notes, and proper marking of cables yes - even with knowledge and understanding that will save lots of time. K&U and a multimeter will ensure that if you do lose the notes or the markings come off you will be able to recover.

Watch out for the markings and layout of switch terminals being different on different switches (there's info on that in the Wiki), and if the circuit loops through the switches rather than the lights, and you want low-profile switches, be aware that you might need deeper back boxes. And if you want metal switches make sure you have a functioning earth conductor to connect to them.

Scolmore have a range of Click light switches that look like ordinary light switches but each switch module can be specified to your requirements.

For example, unlike a standard 2 gang switch, you could order a 2 gang plate with a 2 way and an intermediate switch module.

They have plates in white and other finishes too.

Best thing to do (if by a lucky fluke your switches are not already this brand) would be to find a plate that is closest to the finish of your others.

http://www.scolmore.com/_pdfs/minigrid.pdf

dpm_dpmartin said:

or is a switch a complete 'thing' that you cannot (or should not) disassemble?

Click to expand...

It is, and you cannot.

Thanks for that. I actually do have a multimeter as I do a fair amount of electronics, which is still a world away from household electrics, of course.

securespark said:

Best thing to do (if by a lucky fluke your switches are not already this brand) would be to find a plate that is closest to the finish of your others.

Click to expand...

They (the ones throughout the house) appear to be very like this...

http://www.yesss.co.uk/satin-stainless-10a-3gang-2way-switch-with-black-rocker-sss3swb-p6353

...if not exactly this. I only actually found this today... my searches prior to this had always resulted in switches which had a black trim around the actual switches, which is not what I had. This looks like it's what I need - except it's 2-way, of course.

In an ideal world, I need this as a 3-gang intermediate option. Searching...

Yes with the grid switch system.
You get a plate which screws into the back box then a host of devices be it a switch or a TV coax connector which clip into the plate, and then a selection of covers which go over the lot giving you exactly what you want.

Look here for an example but also note the price. £2.36 for the switch and you also have to buy the rest where same supplier starts at 36p for a light switch.

With Screwfix the only intermediate switches which allow 2 in the plate are grid switches. Other firms will stock cheap intermediate as pairs but I failed to find any to fit a square standard switch back box with three gang option.

Why do you need a 3-gang intermediate?

With grid switched you can get Polished Chrome Modular Plate 4 Gang but they are the width of a double socket. You can get half modular blanks so three switches are central. But I also looked for 3 gang intermediate switches in a standard single socket (2 module) width and failed.

The nearest I can see in Scolmore Click is this:

3 module 1G plate in Stainless Steel: VP SS 403 BK - £4.00 + VAT each.

2 way switch module: MD 002 BK - £0.65 + VAT each.

INT switch module: MD 028 BK - £1.07 + VAT each.

This system allows you to fit whichever modules you need in whatever order.

So you need not buy 3 x INT switches.


However, if you go for this option, you are best eyeballing the plate before purchase and comparing it to one of your existing Eurolite ones.

ban-all-sheds said:

Why do you need a 3-gang intermediate?

Click to expand...

I don't need a 3-gang intermediate, where all 3-gangs are intermediate. I need a 3-gang socket, where 1-gang is intermediate - but I'm expecting that kind of thing doesn't exist?

I need a 3-gang switch because from the first-floor landing I can control 3 lights - the first-floor landing (which can also be controlled from the ground and second floor - the intermediate) and the ground floor landing (2-way) and the second floor landing (2-way).

At the moment, on the first floor landing I have a 2-gang switch (to control the ground floor landing and the second floor landing) and then, to the side of it, a separate switch - of a different style - that is the 1-gang switch that controls the first floor landing - the intermediate one.

I want to rationalise these 2 side-by-side switches into 1 x 3-gang switch, if possible. If not, then I want to replace the 1-gang intermediate switch of the different style with a 1-gang intermediate switch.

But I'd prefer the former.

Hope that makes sense (it does to me, but I'm here, looking at it all).

Maybe I should've started with an image..?

This is what I have...