rebate 35mm door frame to 44mm

[dean1979]

HI All,

Student let season!!

Got myself a decent little contract doing firedoors. This is know newbie to me however working with old 35mm frames is.

The last time I fit 44mm door in a 35mm frame I chiselled the rebate to 44mm, took forever and I wasnt overly happy with the finish.

Now that I am doing these I thought I will try a router, pain in the ass as I hit a few nails.

What do most people do when due to cost you are not to change the frames, and I'm serious the frames can be changed but are suitable for fire doors. Are door jambs removable on most frames (house from 1920s) they dont look removable as they are the full width of the case (minus rebate).

If routing how do you go about doing it.

I saw one previously doctored frame where the joiner added 10mm outwards to the frame with some well fixed timber and the put the archetrave on top of this, looked alright but I'm sure i could get it looking better if this is a practice others use.

Please let me know any thoughts/ideas

cheers

 

[joinerjohn]

By far the easiest way is to replace the door frames. I can't understand these landlords who expect us to put firedoors into frames that are the wrong type.

At the end of the day, firedoors are not the easiest of doors to hang and theses cheapskate landlords, who don't want to go to the expense of buying the correct door frames are tightwads.
A few years ago I went to hang firedoors in an old peoples home (correct frames fitted). The landlord/owner had thought he'd save a few quid by fitting the architraves himself. He'd fitted 75mm torus architrave the wrong way round, and had fitted them so they were exactly in line with the rebates of the door frames. When I told him it was almost impossible to hang the doors, he told me he couldn't afford to replace the architraves and I'd just have to manage. I walked off that job. A few weeks later he phoned me and asked if I could call round to see what another joiner had done.
Went round to find this joiner had hung the doors so that there was a gap at the hanging side of 15mm as he'd set the hinges into the rebate plus the thickness of the architrave. BC had told him they were wrong (which I had told him in the first place) Eventually cost him loads of money to have them done properly and architraves replaced.

Maybe you could replace the architrave around the door frames and make up the 10mm (similar to what I have described) by fixing new architrave the wrong way round, in line with the hinge side of the frame??

 

[ladylola]

I've had to do this many many times , working in listed buildings where removing the frame was not looked at as an option. Nine times out of ten the most akward method was chosen i.e. by making the rebate deeper. Add to that that very often it was an old door being upgraded and not straight just made it worse to work on.
One method to use a router is to pin on a strip onto the frame on the line of the new rebate depth and to use a top bearing cutter to run along it and then finish off at the ends with chisel and rebate plane.Check before hand for nails and dig out any that you find.
If you go for the simpler method of fixing onto the face of the frame make sure you glue and screw the timber on and this goes for any loose rebates you may fit for the firedoors. Rebates in my experience should be a minimum of 25mm as well but check with your local authority

 

[foxhole]

I would clean back door jamb on the frame and check for nail heads if there are any then it's a loose one and can be removed, if it's one piece I plane back to flush with frame taking care to avoid screw /nail heads in frame then fit a new stop to the correct size.The plane only goes to within a few inches of top and bottom so finish into corners with a wide wood chisel.

 

[cardiy]

By far the easiest way is to replace the door frames. I can't understand these landlords who expect us to put firedoors into frames that are the wrong type.

At the end of the day, firedoors are not the easiest of doors to hang and theses cheapskate landlords, who don't want to go to the expense of buying the correct door frames are tightwads.
A few years ago I went to hang firedoors in an old peoples home (correct frames fitted). The landlord/owner had thought he'd save a few quid by fitting the architraves himself. He'd fitted 75mm torus architrave the wrong way round, and had fitted them so they were exactly in line with the rebates of the door frames. When I told him it was almost impossible to hang the doors, he told me he couldn't afford to replace the architraves and I'd just have to manage. I walked off that job. A few weeks later he phoned me and asked if I could call round to see what another joiner had done.
Went round to find this joiner had hung the doors so that there was a gap at the hanging side of 15mm as he'd set the hinges into the rebate plus the thickness of the architrave. BC had told him they were wrong (which I had told him in the first place) Eventually cost him loads of money to have them done properly and architraves replaced.

Maybe you could replace the architrave around the door frames and make up the 10mm (similar to what I have described) by fixing new architrave the wrong way round, in line with the hinge side of the frame??

Hi john, i am a bit puzzled how there was a 15mm gap,can you explain,also are you saying its alright to make up the thickness by fitting the architrave the wrong way around cheers.

 

[joinerjohn]

Hi john, i am a bit puzzled how there was a 15mm gap,can you explain,also are you saying its alright to make up the thickness by fitting the architrave the wrong way around cheers.

Easy Cardiy. the other joiner had fitted the fire doors and just cut the hinges into the rebate but set the outside of the hinge at the architrave. The result was that the door closed completely at the handle side but the rebate was 15mm off the door at the hinge side (rebate + thickness of the architrave)

To make up a rebate using architrave the wrong way round, the OP could get some architrave and have the thickness planed down to 10mm thick (Lets say torus architrave). If he then plants the architrave on the wrong way round , but dead inline with the rebate, He's effectively made the rebate 10mm deeper. Personally I wouldn't recommend planting on to make the rebate deeper (specially with fire doors)
Architraves when put round door frames are usually set back from the rebate by 6mm to 8mm.

 

[cardiy]

So he didnt sink the hinge into the architrave ? is this right ,sorry for being thick lol.

 

[joinerjohn]

So he didnt sink the hinge into the architrave ? is this right ,sorry for being thick lol.

He sunk the hinges into the rebate and architrave, but as the door frame had the correct rebate, this added the thickness of the architrave to the rebate. (architrave wasn't set back 1/4" from the edge of the rebate)

 

[cardiy]

So he didnt sink the hinge into the architrave ? is this right ,sorry for being thick lol.

He sunk the hinges into the rebate and architrave, but as the door frame had the correct rebate, this added the thickness of the architrave to the rebate. (architrave wasn't set back 1/4" from the edge of the rebate)

Sorry john i must be thick,i still cannot visualise what you are saying lol.

 

[joinerjohn]

Here's a visual representation of what had happened Cardiy. Doorframe is green, door is orange and architraves are red.

Untitled

• joinerjohn
• 25 Jul 2010
• 1

Sorry for the rough drawing. (hardly ever use paint on windoze. )

 

[cardiy]

So the frame rebate was to small ,so that is why the joiner hung it to the architrave and frame but the added thickness of the architrave was to thick, so that is why there was a gap of 15mm behind the hinge door side?

 

[joinerjohn]

No Cardiy. the frame rebates were the correct depth to start with, but when the architrave was added it made the rebates too deep.
Simples really.

 

[cardiy]

Cheers john,i know what you mean now.