Damp to right hand side of UVPVC sash window

[Damsonjohn]

Interested in any theories from the experts on here..
This window was installed about 10 years ago, I now have this mysterious horizontal damp patch spreading from he right of the window frame
I think the whole window needs refurbishing on the outside (renew sealant, protective strip etc) but before I launch into that, I wonder why its so peculiarly horizontal?
I'm no expert (as you can tell!) but I would have though that if there were penetrating damp from the window frame it would have gradually spread either downwards or even outwards from the source in a circular pattern. Why go horizontal? Is there some other underlying flaw that I need to rectify?

[note that this is an outside wall with no guttering involved]

http://www.diynot.com/network/Damsonjohn/albums/20568/76844
http://www.diynot.com/network/Damsonjohn/albums/20568/76845
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[kbdiy]

Presumably these pictures are of the inside? What we really need to see is the outside taken a bit further away from the wall so we can see the relationship of the damp area to the window and other surrounding features.

 

[Damsonjohn]

Presumably these pictures are of the inside? What we really need to see is the outside taken a bit further away from the wall so we can see the relationship of the damp area to the window and other surrounding features.

Does this help?
http://www.diynot.com/network/Damsonjohn/albums/20568/76849

I had to hang out of the window to get this
it shows the exterior surface of the wall (painted!!) that is to the right of the window

there is a conservatory outside that makes it difficult to get a shot that is any closer than this, shows you looking up at the window: http://www.diynot.com/network/Damsonjohn/albums/20568/76850

the damp patch goes to the left of this window as you look at it from the outside

 

[dishman]

Looks like a UPVC sash window? Correct?

Are the walls cavity walls?

If so, have you had cavity wall insulation installed?

Just to clarify: The corner of that room are the two externally facing walls? Correct?

 

[Damsonjohn]

Looks like a UPVC sash window? Correct?
Yes

Are the walls cavity walls?
No: they are solid walls

If so, have you had cavity wall insulation installed?
No: they are solid walls

Just to clarify: The corner of that room are the two externally facing walls? Correct?
Yes

 

[kbdiy]

Looking at the last pic I wonder what is going on with the corner of the wall - looks like some kind of discolouration there. Could the end of the gutter be overflowing and wetting the wall below?

The internal pics seem to suggest to me the damp is coming from the corner rather than the window but hard to say.

 

[Damsonjohn]

Looking at the last pic I wonder what is going on with the corner of the wall - looks like some kind of discolouration there. Could the end of the gutter be overflowing and wetting the wall below?

You are correct: the gutter/pipe previously leaked onto that wall, and that resulted in my moving the drainpipe away from that wall a few years ago - it now runs down the other wall and discharges across the roof of the adjacent cloakroom. I haven't gotten around (until now!) to repainting it... I don't think the gutter is overflowing (but see my comment below)

The internal pics seem to suggest to me the damp is coming from the corner rather than the window but hard to say.

You're very observant
There is indeed a problem in the corner of the room, too: it looks like it is a separate problem - they are not joined up, and the damp started at the window and has gradually worked its way horizontally towards the corner.

The corner itself is a problem that is confounding every builder that has looked at it..everyone thinks it must be penetrating damp yet the outside wall and paint looks in good condition. The corner is concealed by the top of the cloakroom roof, yet there is no sign of damp inside that roof.

[thanks for chipping in!]

 

[dishman]

I too noticed the discolouration outside which I was going to comment pending your answers to my first set.

It does look to me that the corner is the issue.

Internally the damp is wider at the corner and then gets less and less towards the window....this suggests the damp is worst at that corner and starts there.

I note that near the corner on the side elevation with the newer conservatory and window, there are old (now filled) holes where it seems the old down pipe used to be attached to the wall before it was moved/re-directed. How well filled and sealed are these old holes?

You can even see the discolouration of where it was positioned it seems?

If I am correct....how long since it was replaced?

 

[Damsonjohn]

It was replaced a few years ago but you've raised an interesting point - I should get up there and inspect those holes as well...

 

[dishman]

It could be a combination of a few things really but it does look like it is something on that corner.

1) The overhang of the roof is not that big so if the gutter is not catching all the water coming off the roof (especially the corner of the very end tile) then it may be just dripping off the roof and making contact with the wall further down. this is supported by the fact the stain only starts further down the wall from the roof.

2) The fact the wall is painted is a bad thing for bricks, even more so when it is a solid wall construction! If water does get in behind the paint surface, it can't easily evaporate away. The building will also not be able to naturally breathe and it will sweat.

3) It could be an overflowing gutter issue as someone else pointed out...

All it would need though is a constant drip against that bit of the wall to allow the possibility of some penetration.

Another possibility....

it is actually internal created damp. YOu have updated a solid wall construction house with upvc. In this situation more that others you need to ensure you have much more controlled ventilation in the house. Active extractors in the kitchen and bathrooms especially. Do not dry clothes in doors. The fact you have got upvc in this house can exacerbate this as the windows are no longer the cold surface, the walls are. So any condensation/damp you get will appear on cold spots on your wall.

 

[Damsonjohn]

It could be a combination of a few things really but it does look like it is something on that corner.

1) The overhang of the roof is not that big so if the gutter is not catching all the water coming off the roof (especially the corner of the very end tile) then it may be just dripping off the roof and making contact with the wall further down. this is supported by the fact the stain only starts further down the wall from the roof.

Thanks: all things point to improving the guttering at that corner .

2) The fact the wall is painted is a bad thing for bricks, even more so when it is a solid wall construction! If water does get in behind the paint surface, it can't easily evaporate away. The building will also not be able to naturally breathe and it will sweat.

I know: the house was painted previously. I've had several companies try to remove it (about 14 years ago) but they failed so I just try to use better paint now

3) It could be an overflowing gutter issue as someone else pointed out...

All it would need though is a constant drip against that bit of the wall to allow the possibility of some penetration.

Another possibility....

it is actually internal created damp. YOu have updated a solid wall construction house with upvc. In this situation more that others you need to ensure you have much more controlled ventilation in the house. Active extractors in the kitchen and bathrooms especially. Do not dry clothes in doors. The fact you have got upvc in this house can exacerbate this as the windows are no longer the cold surface, the walls are. So any condensation/damp you get will appear on cold spots on your wall.

Thanks: aside from any new ideas here, I'm planning to repoint, repair the trim around the window, repainting the walls, and inserting at least 2 air bricks to improve ventilation...
I'm just cautious about doing that if there is another problem with that window.

 

[dishman]

Airbricks are ok, but they are passive and may not be enough ventilation for where you intend to place them.

Specifically in the bathroom and kitchen where the majority of water vapour / humidity is created. In these rooms it is always best to have active ventilation. Specifically extractor fans with humidistats as these will stay on until the humidity is at an acceptable level.

 

[Damsonjohn]

Airbricks are ok, but they are passive and may not be enough ventilation for where you intend to place them.

Specifically in the bathroom and kitchen where the majority of water vapour / humidity is created. In these rooms it is always best to have active ventilation. Specifically extractor fans with humidistats as these will stay on until the humidity is at an acceptable level.

Thanks: both bathrooms have humidistat fans and the kitchen has an extractor too, so the idea if the air bricks is to improve ventilation of the solid (south facing!) wall ...