New Leaseholder company trying to pass £20k charge to residents - UPDATE

[redrabbit]

It doesn't look like you have a loft from the picture (could be the angle).

With you owning your flat, will you have any say in what is done, that you may not want done, and will you have to have done whatever they are doing to the flats they own? I don't know the legal position.

What if they wanted to gold plate the whole building?

It certainly seems like you have a lot that you could query.

It's just unfortunate about the timing. I'm sorry.

Hey,

Yes I have a loft. Funny though ... the ground floor flats don't - so do they still pay the exact same thing? Another unanswered question.

I have no idea about your other questions. All I have had from the housing people is two very vague letters.

Most information came from a neighbour who went to the meeting. I didn't go as I had absolutely no interest... I was about to exchange and move, and in my head I thought "if they want to do work, fine... not interested", as I obviously had no idea that they were passing costs to us.

Those questions you ask are good ones, and I will add them to my list and will ask them at this next meeting - whenever that is. They state they want to start work in April 2019... I've no idea how this will be resolved before then.

From the pictures, you can probably imagine that some flats are tenants and therefore exempt... I'd bet the housing people are charging so much so we basically pay for their properties too. You can also probably imagine that the owners aren't the richest people in the world. I don't think they would have £20k in the bank, and certainly couldn't afford £333 per month (which is the payment if spread over 5 years).

My fear is that they will just say "can't pay? we will evict you then and take you to court if you don't get out". That may sound irrational, but the law around this is really odd.

Appreciate your empathy too. It's probably the unluckiest thing to have ever happened to me. It's the stuff of nightmares to have it happen after 7 years and just before exchange/completion. I've had to stop going over this in my head as it just makes me angry, upset, depressed, etc...

 

[Ihavenojob]

Maybe something in here could be of use
https://www.gov.uk/leasehold-property/right-to-manage-and-management-disputes
But as previously stated, a property lawyer would be the best bet, as the charges seem extortionate for the work being done.

 

[redrabbit]

I'm just reading the lease. One section states:

• To repay the council any expenditure (or an appropriate proportion thereof) for carrying out the following works:

1. Replacement of windows
2. repairs to rear porches
3. repairs to timber cladding (doesn't say replacement... says repairs)
4. Top up roof insulation
5. roof space ventilation

• In the event the council carrying out repairs or maintenance to any services to repay the council the full amount of expenditure reasonably incurred by the council in carrying out such repairs and maintenance

• It is hereby agreed that the expenditure (or an appropriate proportion thereof) referred to in section 3.1.4 (this is the list of above - windows, porches, cladding, etc...) and the proportionate part of the cost of painting the property and the building together with any sums payable by way of improvement shall not be included in the estimate of expenditure mentioned in section 1 (just says I have to pay them a yearly service charge).

• The service charges paid refer to day to day repairs, landscaping charges, estate manager officer and management charge

It's difficult to work out what some of this means. It's open to interpretation in my view.

 

[Ihavenojob]

If the timber cladding was properly maintained, it wouldn't need replacing.Not read through the whole thread, but are these repairs or upgrades?

 

[redrabbit]

If the timber cladding was properly maintained, it wouldn't need replacing.Not read through the whole thread, but are these repairs or upgrades?

Well, it's "roof replacement or repair"... so unsure on that one.

The cladding is DEFINITELY an upgrade as they want to have this new type of cladding which lasts for 20 years and is better. Loft insulation is an upgrade. The porch area they mention to is just rotten really, so it's a full replacement. Balconies seem ok but they're just generally unused and not very nice.

Here's a pic of my place ... the area in red is my area. The blue is the flats below our "house". It's just wooden cladding really. Needs painting possibly? I don't believe they've been maintained well.

 

[gasbanni]

feel for you its a horrible predicament to be in.

The first thing I'd ask for is a copy the structural reports showing why this work needs to be done and a copy of the tender that was put out.
And copies of the quotations.

You can download a companies house app that lists all the directors, check all the directors of your management company and the contractors companies see if any of the names are the same for obvious reasons.

I can't help but feel this is a legalised scam ....how can they change your liabilities from the previous management companies terms seems criminal to me.
You obviously need to organise a residents group action whats to stop them in six years time saying oh we need £35,000 for these "necessary works".

Beware of escalating legal fees and all the residents need to be unified on this one

 

[gasbanni]

I'm just reading the lease. One section states:

• To repay the council any expenditure (or an appropriate proportion thereof) for carrying out the following works:

1. Replacement of windows
2. repairs to rear porches
3. repairs to timber cladding (doesn't say replacement... says repairs)
4. Top up roof insulation
5. roof space ventilation

• In the event the council carrying out repairs or maintenance to any services to repay the council the full amount of expenditure reasonably incurred by the council in carrying out such repairs and maintenance

• It is hereby agreed that the expenditure (or an appropriate proportion thereof) referred to in section 3.1.4 (this is the list of above - windows, porches, cladding, etc...) and the proportionate part of the cost of painting the property and the building together with any sums payable by way of improvement shall not be included in the estimate of expenditure mentioned in section 1 (just says I have to pay them a yearly service charge).

• The service charges paid refer to day to day repairs, landscaping charges, estate manager officer and management charge

It's difficult to work out what some of this means. It's open to interpretation in my view.

Is it an ex council property is the management company the council ?

 

[Brigadier]

Without looking at the whole thread forensically, I can't be sure, but....
...doesn't the list of proposed works almost exactly mirror the stuff stated in your lease?

Cynical me, I'd be thinking someone might be looking for the best earner they could get away with.

Caveat: this is my gut reaction, and others on here will be far better placed to support or refute this.

 

[motorbiking]

You are looking for clauses that suggest they may carry out such works at their sole discretion or anything that says it has the right to determine the work needed. If there is no such clause then it is open to independent interpretation.

There are a lot of similar properties to yours being targeted for upgrade by council agents - they cannot make you pay for their desire to upgrade your property - nothing you have posted so far gives them a right to do so.

How long do you have left on the lease? £20K each might be enough for collective enfranchisement. Then you decide what is needed.

 

[redrabbit]

UPDATE

Since September hardly anything has happened.
In January we had a meeting with the housing people who basically had no answers and answered most complaints with "That is not our department"
They had no real schedule, no timescales, nothing worthwhile
They told us that work was planned to start in May 2019

The first stage consultation ended on 13th April
Today we receive a letter saying that their estimates are more than expected and so they're going to "review their options"

The housing people barely respond, and don't update us

My partner and I are reviewing our options and the only one that appeals is to put the flat on the market at a stupidly reduced rate in order to make up for the poor exterior, poor interior but targeting a developer or handyman. This would potentially result in a loss of about £30-40k however it would mean that we would finally be able to move on with our lives and put this entire nightmare behind us.

We are mid-30s and want to start a family but can't really until we move. If we stayed then we may still be here next year, or may face a long, protracted, over-budget building work which could cost £15k+

Anyway, things are really quite bad at the moment. I'm struggling with this on a day-to-day basis as we are basically powerless and stuck.

Thanks

 

[Ian H]

What about spending the £15,000 to save the £30-40,000 loss?

 

[redrabbit]

What about spending the £15,000 to save the £30-40,000 loss?

It's an interesting idea but unfortunately not feasible. A few reasons why:

- the lease states we can not make our own changes to the outside
- the housing association have asked us about changing the balconies to juliette balconies to save money so any changes i made outside would probably not match their plans and therefore would have to be changed by them
- the porch areas and guttering joints onto my property and my neighbours and therefore I couldn't easily replace just part of it

Our ideal plan was

The housing people would do the outside
As they're doing that we were going to replace the horrible bathroom we have (that is an eyesore)
Paint the whole house
replace all carpets with cheap/bright/cream ones
and then sell - hopefully quickly as it would look nice and fresh

 

[motorbiking]

Altering the fabric of the building is not maintenance.

Did you understand the advice given in this thread? - there were a lot of good ideas from people.
Did you try to get help from https://www.lease-advice.org

Last time this thread surfaced, I didn't get the idea that you understood the options you had. I appreciate this is very stressful, but re-read the thread and respond as if it was Q&A.

 

[redrabbit]

Altering the fabric of the building is not maintenance.

Did you understand the advice given in this thread? - there were a lot of good ideas from people.
Did you try to get help from https://www.lease-advice.org

Last time this thread surfaced, I didn't get the idea that you understood the options you had. I appreciate this is very stressful, but re-read the thread and respond as if it was Q&A.

You're right, some good ideas and suggestions, many of which I have explored but possibly not responded directly to.... my own fault, it's hard to keep track of everything that has gone on and truthfully it's exhausting trying to maintain contact with other residents, the housing people, my partner, family, etc, our facebook group too. But anyway...

Leasehold-Advice. Yes I did speak to them on 17th October and unfortunately it was a really disappointing and worthless experience. I asked them for advice and they mentioned very basic things which I had already done. When I asked about whether I should send a joint letter on behalf of all residents in our road she said "Yea you could do that if you wanted, it's up to you". Maybe I was just unlucky in who I spoke to?

• Some comments say "the costs seem extortionate"... well maybe so, but I can't do a lot about that. Equally they haven't even told us precisely what they're doing yet. They also can not provide any invoice until they end as they say "we don't know what we will find until we take the outside panelling off"
• Some say about maintainance and repairs. I have asked five times for maintenance records and have not received any despite them previously saying they would happily give these over
• The residents group I formed is a mixed bag. Out of about 13 residents, I seem to be the one that does the bulk of the work. Only about 1-2 really seem to care and the rest (who are home owners) don't reply or attend any meetings. I sent a letter to the housing people from us all outlining our case, our concerns/worries and questions. I had to really chase everyone for signatures and in the end I got 11 which isn't too bad
• Structural reports is a good one to ask for and I will ask about that
• The property is not a council or ex-council property, it has always been privately owned by Silva Homes who own about 7000 properties in town
• The leases is not well written, it mentions that major works will be for us to pay for, that external parts of the buildings will be maintained and managed by them (which I don't think they have done)
• I'm not sure how long is left on the lease but when I was selling my house and when this all kicked off it was briefly considered but wasn't really cost-effective. This is because many on the road and street didn't want to be part of it, were not engaged in this "battle" and so it was only a few of us that would have thought about it. It needed us all really as the whole outside structure needs sorting, not just a few odd ones as that would just highlight the poor state of the road in general

If you bear with me I will go back through the thread and check other points. I may have missed some suggestions only as I was getting them from here, my family, other residents etc... so it was hard to keep up with.

My main issue is no responses to many of my emails and questions. Or I chase repeatedly and eventually get an email back without the detail involved or some loose phrase like "we are reviewing options", or "we will send out letters in due course".

 

[Notch7]

What the other residents say?

Are they just goint to pay up, or are they just sticking their heads in the sand and hope the problem will go away.