Don't listen to EFLI, I can't bawl him out on Winston's excellent thread entitled "Yet more censorship", someone seems to have locked it. Can't think why.
Abuse of language
- Thread starter JohnW2
- Start date
I'll see if I can attract him here with .... @EFLImpudence ... since, as you have implied, I would like to know why he (presumably) accepts that "I have" can become " I've " (with 'dropping' of the "h", both written and spoken), but seems to regard " should've " as unacceptable.
Kind Regards, John
I wouldn't worry about it.
I don't. It's 'he' who doesn't seem to be unable to resist a rant about "should of"
If I worried about every instance of misuse/abuse of language or terminology that I come across almost every day I would probably not have time do (or worry about!) anything else!! Mind you, unlike EFLI (and despite probably being older than him), I'm not (can't afford to be) 'retired'!
Kind Regards, John
What does he think it should be then?
"Should'ave"? (if referring to the quote in post 14).
It can't be that, because it's not really abbreviating it, all it's doing is H-dropping - the ultimate Bad English sin.
"Should'ave"? (if referring to the quote in post 14).
It can't be that, because it's not really abbreviating it, all it's doing is H-dropping - the ultimate Bad English sin.
It is highly unfortunate, in my opinion, that over the past twenty or so years, the standard of both spoken and written English has deterirated considerably. In my day, excessive use of contractions such as "should've" or "they're" received a hostile comment, and repeatedly using the wrong word (two, too or to, or there, their or they're) was likely to be rewarded with a ruler over the knuckles.
I have read some posts on this, and other forums* which have been almost unintelligible due to incorrect sentence construction, lack of puctuation, poor grammar and use of the incorrect homophone. I am as guilty as the next of using local, or dialect expressions and contractions in speech, but this is, and always has been the norm; if an expression is not understood, the listener can immediately ask for clarification. With the written word this is not possible. What has brought about this abysmal drop in standards? Does no-one take any pride in their written work any more? Or am I being too "high-brow"? *Forums is the accepted plural of this type of forum. Fora is used as the plural for the open-air square or marketplace from Roman times
I have read some posts on this, and other forums* which have been almost unintelligible due to incorrect sentence construction, lack of puctuation, poor grammar and use of the incorrect homophone. I am as guilty as the next of using local, or dialect expressions and contractions in speech, but this is, and always has been the norm; if an expression is not understood, the listener can immediately ask for clarification. With the written word this is not possible. What has brought about this abysmal drop in standards? Does no-one take any pride in their written work any more? Or am I being too "high-brow"? *Forums is the accepted plural of this type of forum. Fora is used as the plural for the open-air square or marketplace from Roman times
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With English words are taken from other languages without changing the spelling, so specially with place names we get no idea how it should be said by looking at how written. Canada and Granada are good examples.
OK they are foreign, but Happisburgh is it seems spoken as haze bough. Aldeburgh the same I would hearing spoken have expected it to start with an O.
Welsh is phonic, however Llanfair in English would be spelt more like Llanvir, but locals say Llanva. When taking English words they as spelt the Welsh way, so Lorry becomes Lori. And I have never learnt my mother tongue, my excuse is she did not learn it until she was 45.
But as long as under stood, why does it matter, I see ARAF written on the road, can't say the word, but I know it means SLOW. And if
dynion is written on the toilets again no idea how to say it and all I know is Men's begins with D and Woman's begins with M (merched) I don't need to know the word or how to say it.
Ysceifiog I knew how it was pronounced, and I parked within sight of the sign, and asked directions "Is skive ogg" about best I can do.
What is more important is things like low voltage, and live. I read and thing do they mean low voltage or extra low voltage, or live or line?
If some one asks directions to langolan I know they mean Llangollen, so with that town it does not matter, if I corrected it would never stop.
But texted still grates, I have written no such word as texted, any way must get on me bike.
OK they are foreign, but Happisburgh is it seems spoken as haze bough. Aldeburgh the same I would hearing spoken have expected it to start with an O.
Welsh is phonic, however Llanfair in English would be spelt more like Llanvir, but locals say Llanva. When taking English words they as spelt the Welsh way, so Lorry becomes Lori. And I have never learnt my mother tongue, my excuse is she did not learn it until she was 45.
But as long as under stood, why does it matter, I see ARAF written on the road, can't say the word, but I know it means SLOW. And if
dynion is written on the toilets again no idea how to say it and all I know is Men's begins with D and Woman's begins with M (merched) I don't need to know the word or how to say it.
Ysceifiog I knew how it was pronounced, and I parked within sight of the sign, and asked directions "Is skive ogg" about best I can do.
What is more important is things like low voltage, and live. I read and thing do they mean low voltage or extra low voltage, or live or line?
If some one asks directions to langolan I know they mean Llangollen, so with that town it does not matter, if I corrected it would never stop.
But texted still grates, I have written no such word as texted, any way must get on me bike.
I can but presume so ("with or without the final 'e' ") since that is precisely what he wrote in the post (in the original thread) from which I quoted, verbatim, in '#14 in this thread.
I totally agree, and have made that exact same point myself. As you imply,it would be just as bad as " I av " (or " I ave " ).
Kind Regards, John
If anyone was moronic enough to write "should'av", it would surely need an additional apostrophe, making it " should'av' ", which does not seem at all right.
No, it's discussion.
Totally agreed, other than that I'm not convinced that anything special has happened in the last couple of decades. It seems to have been a progressive change over many decades and, 60 years ago, my parents, grandparents and teachers were complaining that the then accepted standards of spoken and written English had deteriorated considerably since their birth, hence a century or more ago. had one of my school teachers had found me using one of the contractions we're discussing it would, as you say, have resulted in physically painful consequences back then
Agreed.
Well, it is 'possible', albeit not in immediate real time, and it sometimes is necessary in relation to some of the posts we see in these forums etc.!
Many still do but, as in relation to so many things, we generally only take notice of, and talk about, the minority exceptions (when did the 6 o'clock news last lsit all the planes that had not crashed that day, or all the people who had not been murdered etc. etc.?
).I wouldn't personally say so, not the least because my feelings seem much the same as yours. However, as I said, my parents and grandparents were saying much the same about my generation's use of language many decades ago, so it is an ongoing and dynamic situation. Furthermore, I do acknowledge the fact that I have known people (of whom there are probably many) whose English (spoken and/or written) is appalling, but whose knowledge or intellectual ability is extremely high, making what they have to say very well worth listening to, if only one can understand what they are trying to say!
Another (quite interesting) point about "too high brow" is that a significant proportion of what one might call 'the aristocracy' are known for eccentricity and that, in some cases, includes 'eccentricity of use of language'
We may disagree here. For decades I have worked in fields in which there is a lot of need to talk (and write) about "data". For the last 2-3 decades, perhaps more, I have been effectively forced (by professional colleagues, clients, journal editors etc.) to treat the word "data" as plural, despite my (initially strong!) protestations that "I speak English", not Latin". Although it still 'sounds and feels wrong' to me, I have come to accept it and therefore have given up protesting! It is interesting that the same does not seem to have happened with other Latin plural words that have come to be used in a singular sense in English - e.g. I don't recall anyone having taken me to task for treating the word "agenda" as singular!
Kind Regards, John
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Quite so - and, off the top of my head, I cannot think of any example of two apostrophes being used in an abbreviated/contracted word in that manner.
Kind Regards,
John
I have not read all the thread because in my opinion you are writing nonsense for the sake of it.
'I have' becomes 'I've' because that is how people pronounce it; dropping both the 'h' and 'a'; the same as if there were no apostrophe - 'Ive'.
'Should've' is not how it is said; that is unpronouncable unless you say it as 'should ve' which you don't because there has to be a vowel sound between the 'd' and 'v' to make it sound like 'should av'. That you might say 'should erv' is sill the way you are saying 'should av'; not 'should ve'; but you don't write it as 'should erv' so what is the point of bringing it up.
Your penchant for willingly accepting, and apparently celebrating, the evolution of language, means that if enough people start saying 'should of' some nincompoop at a dictionary will redefine 'of' as also meaning 'have' instead of pointing out that only ignorant idiots who don't even know what they are saying use the words like that.
All such evolution is the result of ignorant mistakes - unless you think someone has decided to do it on purpose for some unknown reason.
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