Looks like there

[AngleEyes]

The EU agitated in the Ukraine
they were warned by the Russians


thousands of Russian troops massed on the border

I am well aware of Russian aggression
it’s putins intent to bully previous Russian satellite states

That's one heck of a volte-face in only about three hours.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

The people who should never be blamed about any of this (assuming they don't harbour thoughts of ill-intent etc) are the migrants themselves.

The people who should be blamed are the leaders in the countries these people are leaving from, other world leaders for not working more constructively to resolve these global issues and governments around the world.

I'll keep on saying it, the world is a cluster f**k and it ain't going to change. I don't care if folk think I'm a pessimist or whatever, it's fact.

Can you imagine what the world will be like 30+ years from now if some of the climate predictions come true ... hundreds of millions displaced. You think circa 1000 a day coming in is bad

I'm pleased I'm nearing 50 and maybe have 3ish decades left. I suspect all of this is going to get worse before it gets better.

 

[AngleEyes]

The people who should never be blamed about any of this (assuming they don't harbour thoughts of ill-intent etc) are the migrants themselves.

The people who should be blamed are the leaders in the countries these people are leaving from, other world leaders for not working more constructively to resolve these global issues and governments around the world.

I'll keep on saying it, the world is a cluster f**k and it ain't going to change. I don't care if folk think I'm a pessimist or whatever, it's fact.

Can you imagine what the world will be like 30+ years from now if some of the climate predictions come true ... hundreds of millions displaced. You think circa 1000 a day coming in is bad

I'm pleased I'm nearing 50 and maybe have 3ish decades left. I suspect all of this is going to get worse before it gets better.

It's not just the leaders of the countries from where the migrants are originating from, it's also the fault of the leaders who are supplying arms, out-sourcing 'dirty' industrial processes, importing fuel, etc.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

It's not just the leaders of the countries from where the migrants are originating from, it's also the fault of the leaders who are supplying arms, out-sourcing 'dirty' industrial processes, importing fuel, etc.

I don't disagree with you, hence me using the phrase cluster f**k. If anyone thinks the world will ever untangle the current mess to anything near being 'sorted' they're deluded at best. From year dot we've wanted to divide, concur blah blah blah. It's not going to change.

 

[AngleEyes]

blah blah blah.

Yes, Greta.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

Yes, Greta.

I know she's become known for using that phrase, however when you think about it, regardless of whether you agree with her use of it contextually, blah blah blah sums up much of what we're fed from the proverbial powers that be.

 

[AngleEyes]

I know she's become known for using that phrase, however when you think about it, regardless of whether you agree with her use of it contextually, blah blah blah sums up much of what we're fed from the proverbial powers that be.

I quite admire her for the way she has galvanised , especially the young, opinion.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

I quite admire her for the way she has galvanised , especially the young, opinion.

I suppose I'm indifferent towards her, however for sure she has created engagement from lots of young (and other) people.

I tend to be slightly conflicted when it comes to the views of younger people, and I would include myself in that x decades ago. To an extent, it is easy for younger people to chastise older generations on whatever subject. They (the young) have yet to become burdened with the responsibilities and pressures of adulthood, whether that's juggling family life and careers, or working in areas of responsibility where things are less black and white due to various competing factors.

Dad, you're disgusting! Why? Cause you still have a fossil fuel fed heating system in our family home! Get it changed!!!

(dad doesn't have x thousand pounds to spare, struggles to make ends meet, in constant overdraft etc)

The idealism of youth vs day to day realities.

And yes ... I know if we don't start changing our ways soon we're all doomed etc, so let's not get into a protracted discussion around that

 

[AngleEyes]

Dad, you're disgusting! Why? Cause you still have a fossil fuel fed heating system in our family home! Get it changed!!!

(dad doesn't have x thousand pounds to spare, struggles to make ends meet, in constant overdraft etc)

The idealism of youth vs day to day realities.

And yes ... I know if we don't start changing our ways soon we're all doomed etc, so let's not get into a protracted discussion around that

Or "Dad you are aware that fossil fuel is endangering my very existence? What are you planning on doing about it? And it is urgent on the geological scale. The longer you leave it, the more damaging it becomes, the more urgent it becomes and the more it will cost to fix it. You need to change your priorities, instead of saving for a new car for my 18th birthday, save for a renewable energy heating system."

 

[diy_fun_uk]

Or "Dad you are aware that fossil fuel is endangering my very existence? What are you planning on doing about it? And it is urgent on the geological scale. The longer you leave it, the more damaging it becomes, the more urgent it becomes and the more it will cost to fix it. You need to change your priorities, instead of saving for a new car for my 18th birthday, save for a renewable energy heating system."

In my scenario, this dad isn't/can't save anything financially. Millions of people struggle enough getting through the day to day stuff, let alone thinking about 'saving the planet.' Let's leave it there or we'll go round and round

 

[AngleEyes]

In my scenario, this dad isn't/can't save anything financially. Millions of people struggle enough getting through the day to day stuff, let alone thinking about 'saving the planet.' Let's leave it there or we'll go round and round

Sure we can leave it there, we agree that individuals can make little or no impact on their own. It needs a collective effort and governmental assistance to effect worthwhile change.
Even individual countries might have little effect, and it's the smallest countries that will be most negatively affected, even though some of the largest are probably the most polluting.

 

[Vinty]

so you don't consider that Ukraine is an independent country with the power to make trade and co-operation treaties with others

The problem is that the Ukrainians are not a homogeneous people.
You have the Ukrainian speaking west and the Russian speaking east.
The Nationalist dominated government has been oppressing the ethnic Russians in the east.
This has led to the uprisings among the Russian speaking population in East Ukraine.

 

[JohnD]

As I said

you don't consider that Ukraine is an independent country with the power to make trade and co-operation treaties with others

And now you are saying that Russians, Britons, Americans, French and pretty well everyone else is incapable of being an independent nation, just like the peoples of Northern Ireland.

 

[Vinty]

Maybe the only solution would be to partition the country.
Allow the Russian speaking East of the country independence or union with Russia if thats what they want.
The Ukrainian west of the country would then be free to do as it wishes.
The borders of modern Ukraine were created by the communists, for some reason they included large chunks of ethnic Russian territory.
Crimea was only ceded to Ukraine by Russia for administration purposes.
So, if Ukraine off loaded the ethnic Russian areas which are causing the most trouble, then it could solve the problem.

Trying to keep a country together that doesn't want to be kept together will only cause conflict.
Its a bit like trying to force Scotland to stay in the Union even if that country didn't want to remain.

 

[AngleEyes]

The problem is that the Ukrainians are not a homogeneous people.
You have the Ukrainian speaking west and the Russian speaking east.
The Nationalist dominated government has been oppressing the ethnic Russians in the east.
This has led to the uprisings among the Russian speaking population in East Ukraine.

Until 2014 the Ukraine president was pro-Russian, against the desires of the majority western leaning Ukrainians.

It wasn't the Russian speaking Ukrainians that occupied government buildings, it was Russian military and paid Russian rioters, as confirmed later by Putin.

Russian leader of the extremist Eurasian Youth Union Oleg Bakhtiyarov was arrested for, in part, recruiting rioters for 500 US dollars each to assist in the storming of government buildings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine​