2m repetition compliance

[SparkyTris]

At the risk of getting booted, for being completely off the topic of UK Electric, but also because I know there are a few honey roasters on here;

Is sending DTMF sequences through a licensed 2m repeater in UK "compliant" with amateur licensing?

"why would you want to?"

in this case, to activate certain devices remotely. Specifically, an alerting tone and conditional squelch on a monitoring receiver, so that said monitoring receiver will only alert on certain calls, and keep shtum throughout the repeater's periodic idents and other users qso's. However, other "remote control" type applications might also be considered.

 

[JohnW2]

Is sending DTMF sequences through a licensed 2m repeater in UK "compliant" with amateur licensing?

As far as I can see,the licence conditions do not really answer that question explicity, although you may (if low power) use yoiur equipment as a "Data Station".

"why would you want to?" .... in this case, to activate certain devices remotely. Specifically, an alerting tone and conditional squelch on a monitoring receiver, so that said monitoring receiver will only alert on certain calls, and keep shtum throughout the repeater's periodic idents and other users qso's. However, other "remote control" type applications might also be considered.

I'm not too clear to to where/what/who you would be sending these messages to, and that might be relevant in terms of the fairly over-riding condition which says:

19. Unless the Radio Equipment is being used for the purposes of clause 5, the Licensee must ensure that
a) Transmissions are only addressed to one or more amateur radio station(s);

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

As a repeater keeper myself, I use DTMF signalling to control certain aspects of the repeater and it replies directly on the repeaters trasmitter to indicate it's action.

Does that help?

If you are intending to control equipment which is not part of the repeater, I'd suggest contacting the repeater keeper for their approval. I personally am fairly relaxed as mine does not get much use. When a new clubstarted I gave my blessing to them running 2 nets per week, particularly as many of the members only had handheld radios.

However I'd suggest using some other means as the repeater may be in use when you wish to use it for an unrelated purpose.

 

[ericmark]

I know in Hong Kong, the repeater used DTMF tones to identify the user as authorised to use the repeater, in the UK don't think we are allowed to have an amateur repeater that uses DTMF tones only, think they need to work with a tone as well, private repeaters do have DTMF tones only, and where there is repeater abuse then permission may be given for DTMF only.

So may be a problem to send two DTMF tones, so as @SUNRAY says, I also remember something about RAYNET and repeaters, but not done RAYNET in years.

 

[SUNRAY]

I know in Hong Kong, the repeater used DTMF tones to identify the user as authorised to use the repeater, in the UK don't think we are allowed to have an amateur repeater that uses DTMF tones only, think they need to work with a tone as well, private repeaters do have DTMF tones only, and where there is repeater abuse then permission may be given for DTMF only.

So may be a problem to send two DTMF tones, so as @SUNRAY says, I also remember something about RAYNET and repeaters, but not done RAYNET in years.

RAYNET repeaters were used under special permits and we tended to 'not mention them' but of course it never took much effort to find them when in use. They didn't require a callsign or idents unlike fixed repeaters but have always had to be manned so instantly accessible for any problems.

 

[SparkyTris]

As far as I can see,the licence conditions do not really answer that question explicity, although you may (if low power) use yoiur equipment as a "Data Station".

I'm not too clear to to where/what/who you would be sending these messages to, and that might be relevant in terms of the fairly over-riding condition ...

Good point, I did not make that clear. this is so that a licensed amateur operating /p with a handie can call domestic base QTH where there is a trx in a family area (kitchen) which might otherwise be an audio nuisance on its "normal" noise squelch. base trx is also operated by licensed amateur.
/p operator is a 13 yr old lad who won't have a cellphone (genuinely terrified of social media) and has just studied for & got his F license in order to be able to keep in touch when out & about.

I had wondered about the possibility of controlling other things with DTMF but was just an idle wonder as an extension of the alerting possibilities of the system. as you point out, the stipulation that transmissions must be addressed to other licenses does nail that.

 

[SUNRAY]

From that It sounds like your radios have DCS (Digital Coded Squelch) facilities, this also goes by a number of different manufacturers names such as DPL, DTG but they are similar sorts of systems albeit implemented differently. Effectively the systems are not working outside the licensing conditions as you are not preventing others hearing what you are saying. However if both ends are using DCS squelch it effectively prevents you hearing other users, so how would you know if the channel is in use or you're causing problems?

If you sit and natter for ages the tone chains become very uncomfortable for other listeners, especially if they are appreciably louder than the speech audio.

 

[ericmark]

Have the rules changed, I am sure my son had to wait until 14 to get his licence? I know he got his call sign at 14 years old, and I used to talk to him using packet radio, which back then worked due to the number of repeaters, does packet radio still exist?

We did in a way cheat, I would call him to tell him something, knowing a radio would be on, and my wife would hear it.

But DTMF tones are a problem with PMR466 radios, as the users are unaware the frequency is in use. I know we use them where I volunteer, they are a good way to let all know what is going on, but on one event my radio was used only to listen, I did not have the DTMF programmed in, and realised that we had someone else using the same channel, with around 15 handies in use, not easy to go around swapping channels on them all.

They came ready programmed, and I do not have software to read the DTMF set, to keep selecting different DTMF tones on mine, is a long process, found the code used channel 1 to 8 but changes 9 to 16 not found that yet. And my PMR466 when they arrived were not even set to correct frequency, had to get software and lead to get them onto frequency allowed in UK.

 

[JohnW2]

Have the rules changed, I am sure my son had to wait until 14 to get his licence?

... and the same with me. As I've said, I took RAE and morse test when I was 13, and got my licence (by physically going to wherever it then was in London) on my 14th birthday. I don't know if that has changed.

 

[SUNRAY]

Much younger now, I know of one girl who was 8 year old when licensed

 

[JohnW2]

Much younger now, I know of one girl who was 8 year old when licensed

Times change. In my (our?) day females of any age were an extreme novelty
Edit: to be clear, I meant (in context) "females with amateur radio licences"

 

[ericmark]

Always called young ladies, until married, then XYL, did not seem very nice, and it seems OM that the old was a complement saying we had the knowledge of the old.

But got my son into trouble with the Q code, I asked if he had QRM, forgot I had said it, when I could hear female in background, so when his wife asked me what QRM was, I told her.

73

 

[JohnW2]

Always called young ladies, until married, then XYL, did not seem very nice, and it seems

Indeed, but when we talked about YLs (or, indeed, XYLs) that was generally just part of 'social conversation' (quite often referring to one's girlfriend or wife), not to someone who was a licensed radio amateur. I can recall only one female with a licence whom I knew 'back then'. Remarkably, 60 years on, I can remember her name (first name and surname) but, at least at the moment can't remember her callsign!

 

[SparkyTris]

If you sit and natter for ages the tone chains become very uncomfortable for other listeners, especially if they are appreciably louder than the speech audio.

yes agreed. I have mucked around with these mechanisms on the chinese products. In this case, the tone sequence only needs be sent once for each qso; it has the effect of causing the radio to alert (ring) and opening the rx mute. this will then idle for 20s or so, resetting within that period on each COR break. so it SEEMS to be fairly ideal for this purpose.

 

[SparkyTris]

We did in a way cheat, I would call him to tell him something, knowing a radio would be on, and my wife would hear it.

interesting you say this. I have wondered about the precise definition of the "under supervision" part of the licensing conditions for these purposes.
To be clear, "these purposes" are - general domestic logisitical comms. My lad, 13, is technically minded, genuinely wary of social media and professes to not want a GSM cellphone (!) because of social media. Now that he is becoming independent in a rural area, and with rural maritime interests, it would be convenient to have comms with him when he's out & about. Yes he could have a non-smart-phone. but why make it simple. So, he studied for & got the F license specifically in order to have access to 2m.
so far it's working well.
(ie, missed the bus, will be late home, going out in the dinghy, plans have changed etc)
what about when his mum = my XYL, is in the house alone, and a selcall (from the boy) comes in on the kitchen trx.
could she respond with my callsign and call it "under supervision" even when Im not in the house? she is fairly competent and has had by long association a fairly decent training in ham & marine radio. (she might say a bellyful!)

the alternative (which I am working on ) is of course just to get her to do the F license too.

just seems a great way of using a resource (2m band & repeaters) which seems sadly to have fallen by the wayside. There will be a backlash against the mental heroin of social media, of that I am sure. tide is turning already with schools starting to ban phones.
Starting to ban phones, I mean it's mental that THAT is the headline, how the F-- did they even get into schools in the first place.

South America (chile & argentina) - and the Falkland Islands use the 2m band in exactly this way.