Bye Bye Gary

[Vinty]

Wow wow wow. FFS Vinty, and wow.

Just my ill informed opinion.
Although I think Lineker was right to leave , even if he was 'helped' to leave.

 

[blup]

Just my ill informed opinion.
Although I think Lineker was right to leave , even if he was 'helped' to leave.

The relevant security service certainly appear to have the means and resources to "help" him, if their involvement in the exploding pagers is anything to go by, but on balance probably more cock up than conspiracy. Nobody pressed the send button for him, so it was probably just a matter of time. Ali Cambell made an interesting point on the today programme that criticism of talent "speaking out" is aimed more at those on the left than the right.

 

[martygturner]

Why dance around ethnic cleansing, we define ethnic cleansing as The mass extermination or expulsion of people belonging to one ethnic or religious group by those of another. Tell me that's not happening... because from where I sit it clearly is, and before people start banging on about there is a right to do it... no there is not.

I would point out that as Israel has defined any criticism of its actions as being anti Semitic, then it has taken a position that exposes the whole of Judaism to be criticised for the actions of Israel's. This is a situation entirely of Israels making and its wrong. I am dismayed that friends are being criticised for the actions of another country who have no say over and no ability to change.

Israel is not Judaism, it is a country populated mostly by Jews .

 

[Deleted member 323070]

Why dance around ethnic cleansing, we define ethnic cleansing as The mass extermination or expulsion of people belonging to one ethnic or religious group by those of another. Tell me that's not happening... because from where I sit it clearly is, and before people start banging on about there is a right to do it... no there is not.

I would point out that as Israel has defined any criticism of its actions as being anti Semitic, then it has taken a position that exposes the whole of Judaism to be criticised for the actions of Israel's. This is a situation entirely of Israels making and its wrong. I am dismayed that friends are being criticised for the actions of another country who have no say over and no ability to change.

Israel is not Judaism, it is a country populated mostly by Jews .

And the architects of the current policies and conduct are Zionists.

 

[JohnD]

Nobody is objecting to your criticism of Netanyahu or the Israeli government. You don't need to use the word Zionist which has broader meaning.

Some people, for example Motorbiking and Fillyboy, like to say that anybody who criticises actions of the State of Israel or of Zionists is "antisemitic" or a "Jew hater."

Not all Zionists are members of the government of Israel.

 

[motorbiking]

Some people, for example Motorbiking and Fillyboy, like to say that anybody who criticises actions of the State of Israel or of Zionists is "antisemitic" or a "Jew hater."

Not all Zionists are members of the government of Israel.

You do not need to make your criticism based on race or religion. Nobody is objecting to you sharing your hatred of the state, the government or any individual, provided its not based on race or religion.

 

[MNW67]

Some people, for example Motorbiking and Fillyboy, like to say that anybody who criticises actions of the State of Israel or of Zionists is "antisemitic" or a "Jew hater."

Doesn't Zionism mean being in favour of a homeland for Jews in what was Palestine. So, if you are an anti-Zionist, surely that means, at some level, that you want to get rid of the state of Israel.

 

[fillyboy]

You do not need to make your criticism based on race or religion. Nobody is objecting to you sharing your hatred of the state, the government or any individual, provided its not based on race or religion.

And of course, provided the criticism is not accompanied by a picture of a small rodent, which is placed thus purely to denote the object of your ire as vermin.

 

[Deleted member 323070]

Doesn't Zionism mean being in favour of a homeland for Jews in what was Palestine. So, if you are an anti-Zionist, surely that means, at some level, that you want to get rid of the state of Israel.

Not correct. The stated ambition of Zionists is to occupy and inhabit the whole of the Levant, not just Israel.
That means the exclusion of Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, and Jordanians.
That would be blatantly contrary to the original UN declaration, which had a condition to exist peacefully alongside the existing indigenous people.
Israel contravened that condition within hours.

 

[MNW67]

Not correct. The stated ambition of Zionists is to occupy and inhabit the whole of the Levant, not just Israel.
That means the exclusion of Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, and Jordanians.
That would be blatantly contrary to the original UN declaration, which had a condition to exist peacefully alongside the existing indigenous people.
Israel contravened that condition within hours.

I don't claim to be an expert. Apols for quoting Wiki below. But it seemed a good starting point:

There was a shift in the meaning of anti-Zionism after the events of the 1940s. Whereas pre-1948 anti-Zionism was against the hypothetical establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, post-1948 anti-Zionism had to contend with the existence of the State of Israel. This often meant taking a retaliatory position to the new reality of Jewish sovereignty in the Middle East. The overriding impulse of post-1948 anti-Zionism is to dismantle the current State of Israel and replace it with something else.

 

[fillyboy]

Not correct. The stated ambition of Zionists is to occupy and inhabit the whole of the Levant, not just Israel.
That means the exclusion of Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, and Jordanians.

Nonsense.

 

[Deleted member 323070]

I don't claim to be an expert. Apols for quoting Wiki below. But it seemed a good starting point:

There have been many evolutions of Zionism
It is fair to say that some may use AntiZionism as a subterfuge for AntiSemitism.
But Zionism is itself considered racist because it wants to eliminate non-Jews from the Levant. And it supports current apartheid in Israel.

 

[Deleted member 323070]

Nonsense.

aimed to establish and maintain a national home for the Jewish people, pursued through the colonization of Palestine,[2] a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Judaism,
Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine with as much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible

The Torah gives very different borders for Israel in different places, some smaller, some larger. In one passage, Israel’s border extends all the way to the Euphrates River, which would include all of Syria! I (and parts of Iraq and Saudi Arabia).
The modern state of Israel continues to struggle with this issue. We don’t have internationally recognized borders, not with the Palestinians, and not with Syria.

The Land of Israel is the traditional Jewish name for an area of the Southern Levant.

A slightly more detailed definition is given in Exodus 23:31, which describes the borders as "from the sea of reeds (Red Sea) to the Sea of the Philistines (Mediterranean sea) and from the desert to the Euphrates River", although the Hebrew text of the Bible uses the name, "the River", to refer to the Euphrates.
Although the English name "Red Sea" is derived from this name ("Erythraean" derives from the Greek for red), the term denoted all the waters surrounding Arabia—including the Indian Ocean and the Persian Gulf, not merely the sea lying to the west of Arabia bearing this name in modern English. Thus, the entire Arabian peninsula lies within the borders described. Modern maps depicting the region take a reticent view and often leave the southern and eastern borders vaguely defined. The borders of the land to be conquered given in Numbers have a precisely defined eastern border which included the Arabah and Jordan.

The more you research the land of the Jews, as claimed by Zionists, the more confused you become about the amount of land or the borders that are described.
I'm not sure if this in intentional, and reflects the difficulty in tying Israel down to specific terms in agreements demonstrated in numerous negotiations.
You think there's going to be an accord, and at the last minute something else pops up to wreck the accord.

 

[JohnD]

Doesn't Zionism mean being in favour of a homeland for Jews in what was Palestine. So, if you are an anti-Zionist, surely that means, at some level, that you want to get rid of the state of Israel.

I don't know, I haven't met any anti-Zionists.

I have, however, met people who are opposed to racism, apartheid, genocide and invasion, which are all practiced by the State of Israel.

Not to mention the spreading of famine and disease, destroying water supplies, farms, hospitals and sewage plants, and blocking humanitarian aid.

 

[JohnD]

Nobody is objecting to you sharing your hatred of the state, the government or any individual, provided its not based on race or religion.

None of your smears arise, since my opposition is to actions.

Funnily enough, the actions to which I object, are based on racist, ethnic and religious hatred.