ICE told to get the eff out

[motorbiking]

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) No; Renee and Becca intended to observe, video, and make a lot of noise. All totally legal under the US constitution.

3 is something that experts can't agree on.

First of all, the answer to 3) means that the activity (ordering Renee to leave the car) wasn't lawful.

We've already established there is no right to resist.

But even if you are correct and order to leave the car was lawful, a prosecutor needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Becca had specific intent for Renee to flee and that Renee acted because of what she heard Becca say.

She paused to allow her wife to get in the car, she saw that ICE agents were getting close to getting the door open and surrounding her, the wife told her to go go go/move move move etc and she did.

In fact she went from having a polite conversation with the first ICE officer, to the escalation from her Wife, to fleeing after being told to stop.

 

[MNW67]

In fact she went from having a polite conversation with the first ICE officer, to the escalation from her Wife, to fleeing after being told to stop.

How did the wife escalate things. Was it when she called the agent 'big boy' or when she told him it was time for his lunch break.

 

[motorbiking]

It is all down to common sense and upbringing. You do wrong and you suffer the consequences. She will have to accept that you follow the law or risk being shot.

some 1500ish people are shot dead by US Police each year. Of those large numbers are unarmed or suspected of non-violent crimes.

Most people know in America that you do as you are told and Sue after.

Years ago I approached a traffic cop, when ridding the big Sur on a Harley, to ask directions. The first thing he did was step back and put his hand on his gun. I popped my flip lid and said we are British tourists and a bit lost, can you point us in the direction of a motel. I nearly **** myself. He totally relaxed once I spoke. Its totally different out there.

 

[motorbiking]

How did the wife escalate things. Was it when she called the agent 'big boy' or when she told him it was time for his lunch break.

You are still not being objective.

 

[MNW67]

You are still not being objective.

I am being totally objective. I am using her exact words which were completely benign. What was it about her words or behaviour that you believe escalated the situation.

 

[motorbiking]

I am being totally objective. I am using her exact words which were completely benign. What was it about her words or behaviour that you believe escalated the situation.

At 09:35:05 Central Standard Time (UTC−06:00), Good's maroon Honda Pilot SUV was stopped sideways leftward on the one-way Portland Avenue. Ross drove his SUV around, stopped ahead of her, began recording video, and stepped out with his face covered. He walked in front of her SUV, and she backed up the vehicle. Ross walked toward and around Good's SUV while recording her face and rear license plate. Good told him, "That's fine, dude. I'm not mad at you." At 09:36:51, Good's partner Becca stood behind their SUV, also recording on her cell phone, and said, "Show your face. That's OK. We don't change our plates every morning, just so you know. This will be the same plate when you come talk to us later. That's fine. US citizen, former ****ing veteran, disabled veteran."

Good drove her SUV slightly forward. At 09:36:58, a Ford Explorer entered Portland Avenue, Good waved, apparently to indicate that the Ford should pass in front of her SUV, which it did, along with another vehicle.[1][53] Meanwhile, Ross returned to the right side of Good's SUV and switched his phone from his right hand to his left hand while Becca said: "You wanna come at us? You wanna come at us? I say go get yourself some lunch, big boy." As Good continued waving, a Nissan Titan stopped to the left side of her SUV and two more ICE agents stepped out.

An eyewitness said ICE agents gave conflicting orders, with one telling Good to drive away while another shouted at her to get out of the SUV. At 09:37:08, the ICE agents from the Nissan pickup approached Good's SUV as one of them repeatedly ordered her to "get out of the ****ing car". Good remained in her vehicle and put the transmission into reverse.

A number of events then occurred near-simultaneously:

One of the ICE agents who approached her placed his hands on the driver's door handle and open window of Good's vehicle.
Becca attempted to open the front passenger door.
Good drove a few feet in reverse.
Ross walked to the front-left of Good's vehicle.
The agent at the driver's door reached through the open window, and Becca shouted, "Drive, baby, drive!"

Killing of Renée Good - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Highway Man]

I am being totally objective. I am using her exact words which were completely benign. What was it about her words or behaviour that you believe escalated the situation.

Even though she had said she instigated it and admitted it was her fault. You still persist with saying when did she do it.

 

[MNW67]

Even though she had said she instigated it and admitted it was her fault. You still persist with saying when did she do it.

I just want to check what you are saying. We know that the agent who shot Renee pulled up next to her car, got out, and started circling it and videoing her. Presumably, you believe, at this stage, he was going to let Renee leave. But then the wife came back and started teasing him. Are you saying that this action made him change his mind and decide to have Renee arrested instead of letting her leave?

 

[motorbiking]

But then the wife came back and started teasing him.

Objective?

 

[MNW67]

Objective?

Those are the facts. What is your alternative version.

 

[motorbiking]

You cannot see You wanna come at us? You wanna come at us?

Is American equivalent of "come and have a go".

 

[ellal]

Most people know in America that you do as you are told and Sue after.

Years ago I approached a traffic cop, when ridding the big Sur on a Harley, to ask directions. The first thing he did was step back and put his hand on his gun. I popped my flip lid and said we are British tourists and a bit lost, can you point us in the direction of a motel. I nearly **** myself. He totally relaxed once I spoke. Its totally different out there.

Not possible to sue after you've taken a head shot for no reason!

But you are correct in the way americans often react...

Had an american girlfriend many years ago, and when out and about got pulled over for no reason.
I argued the toss in the usual way and the net result was simply a producer...

But as he said good night, he asked if my girlfriend was ok.
Looked over to the passenger seat and she was curled up with her hands over her head.
She told me later that had I spoken that way in her home country, the sh*t would have hit the fan...

And if I'd been black, very lucky to survive!

If they're happy to live that way, then good luck to them!

 

[motorbiking]

We share a language, but our culture is completely different.

There is a video of Larry Ellison on Youtube being pulled over by the cops on the island that he owns 98% of, there is no "do you know who I am" boll@x, just courtesy and respect. He's smart enough to know how to interact with the police.

 

[MNW67]

You cannot see You wanna come at us? You wanna come at us?

Is American equivalent of "come and have a go".

And what was the effect of that on this whole event. Did that escalate the level of the crime. Are you saying that this is what made the agents decide to arrest Renee.

 

[JP_]

He's smart enough to know how to interact with the police.

Yeah, but the main difference is that the police officer called him sir, asked how he was, and was very polite about it all, thanking him when things were passed etc. A bit different from several officers yelling while pointing guns, and acting like they just pulled over a carload of armed terrorists.