Garden electrics?

ban-all-sheds · 19 Jul 2014

Belboz said:
Whilst I appreciate it would be difficult to list everything an 'amateur' CANNOT tackle under the regs,

No it wouldn't. The list below covers everything an 'amateur' cannot tackle under the regs:

a short guide to what CAN be done may prevent this section being filled with posts which only end up in attracting the [justified?] ire of those on here who are properly qualified.

And here's a short guide to what can be done:

All work on Low and Extre-Low Voltage installations in residential premises which they are competent do do and where no licensing or other authority exercises a statutory control.

angelboy · 19 Jul 2014

Thanks for reminding me I'm a total f**kwit that's one small step away from wiping myself off the planet....

westie101 · 19 Jul 2014

It is some care for the DIYer.

Until the DIYer decides that the lack of advice on here is insulting and goes his own way.
That is when tragedy is more likely to occur, do NOT kid yourselves about this.

If it was a complicated design involving a full house, factory, shop or other most of the posts on here have merit.

But this is NOT

It's a guy who wants to install a few sockets and a light in an outbuilding saving himself a few quid by pre installing cables!

For the OP look in the Wiki at the top of the index page (first subject) there are basic circuit designs in there, for what you are doing is not rocket science or needs complicated designs.

End of the day non of the electricians on here is losing money by this as you would not get the contract, but it may actually save the OP from employing a cowboy of which there are far too many out there installing dangerous installations and from what I see on here more likely that a DIYer to get it wrong!

EFLImpudence · 19 Jul 2014

westie101 said:
It's a guy who wants to install a few sockets and a light in an outbuilding saving himself a few quid by pre installing cables!

Then, what is wrong with telling him to discuss it with his electrician and what is so unpalatable about doing that?

Posters don't seem to realise that WE are those electricians and have come across such installations which have to be redone because they were not installed as we would have done to sign for them.

It is blatantly obvious that this OP does not know how to do it.
There is no disgrace in that; it is not his job.
I may not know how to do his work.

What is the point him installing one switch drop and a socket ring/radial leaving an electrician to connect them?

westie101 · 19 Jul 2014

Hmm well on the welcome page we see

Forum
Are you working on your own DIY project? Share experiences, tips, ideas, and frustrations with others, discuss projects and ask questions. You have the facility to join a group already discussing a subject area or start your own topic.

I see time and time again purely negative unhelpful advice that serves no one any use.
If you do not want to give positive help then don't post!

If you want to over complicate things in honour of the great BS7671 think carefully, again it is NOT the law, it is not a statutory document that MUST be obeyed come what may and throw common sense out of the window. (OK those electricians that have signed their professionalism away to a scheme that insists they must follow it have to)

Heck look at the discussion about speaker cables on UPVC, trying to decide if they have to be protected by an RCD because that book says so.
UTTERLY RIDICULOUS.
I doubt it was ever intended that the book would cover this, but it's getting discussed

All the law basically says is that it must be safe.

You know in the days of the earlier editions there was little need for all the bureaucracy, wiring was safe and folk would give clear advice. But not now it seems to be all about covering backs.
How is anyone going to learn how to do simple (and this job is simple) projects if not by asking and being given clear safe advice.
No "oooooh don't touch that you need an electrician" or "YOU can't do that"

When I joined this forum I was absolutely amazed at the total lack of knowledge and the myths surrounding the DNOs, we do nothing different that when we were Electricity Boards, but it seems no one was even prepared to take the trouble as a professional to expand their knowledge outside their own little world.
When we used Installation Inspectors it was common for the electrician to be on site with us to learn, or ring us up to learn all with the aim of being in a position to help their customers. Where has all that gone?

I've spent a part of my career digging so called electricians out of holes they dug.
The farm where the cows were getting shocks in the milking parlour
PME supply, parlour rewired by electricians and not made TT
No bonding to steel framed building or any other steel in the parlour
No bonding to steel reinforcing in the floor
All done (or not) by a qualified contractor

Another contractor spent a week trying to solve the problem, installed loads of earth rods
no change

No bonding done or TT done yet again

I visited site and found the fault in 15 minutes
HOW
I meggered the circuits in the parlour and found a N/E fault on a lighting circuit! (it was trapped between some steelwork & the roof

The so called professional electrician had never even though to test the circuits properly.

I could go on, but I'm going out with the wife[/b]

JohnW2 · 19 Jul 2014

EFLImpudence said:
It is blatantly obvious that this OP does not know how to do it. There is no disgrace in that; it is not his job.
I may not know how to do his work. What is the point him installing one switch drop and a socket ring/radial leaving an electrician to connect them?

All true and valid, but I think westie's point was a general one. If, as is probably the case in this thread, it's fairly clear that a DIYer is going to do ahead with what he's doing, with or without advice, then there is, IMO, a 'lesser of evils' (call it 'pragmatism' if you like) judgement to be made.

Kind Regards, John

EFLImpudence · 19 Jul 2014

So, will telling him 1mm² and 2.5mm² ensure it is safe?

Would it not be better for someone stood in the outbuilding looking at it to tell him exactly how to do it.
Why is he so opposed to doing that?

JohnW2 · 19 Jul 2014

westie101 said:
If you want to over complicate things in honour of the great BS7671 think carefully, again it is NOT the law, it is not a statutory document that MUST be obeyed come what may and throw common sense out of the window. (OK those electricians that have signed their professionalism away to a scheme that insists they must follow it have to).

I agree that last bit is often the problem - and not only in relation to CPS membership. Employers and insurers can also constrain electricians to work to the strict word of BS7671. However, even for those who aren't so 'constrained', compliance with BS7671 is probably often their own option. Whilst BS7671 is not law, the official guidance about the law (Approved Doc P) indicates that compliance with BS7671 is one of the ways of complying for the law - and I would suggest that, in relation to many (probably most) matters, it is probably the only way that most electricians can demonstrate compliance with the law; one would probably need to have an academic background in electrical engineering to produce convincing 'from first principles' arguments.

westie101 said:
Heck look at the discussion about speaker cables on UPVC, trying to decide if they have to be protected by an RCD because that book says so. UTTERLY RIDICULOUS. I doubt it was ever intended that the book would cover this, but it's getting discussed. All the law basically says is that it must be safe.

As the perpetrator, I suppose I have to comment. I only raised that issue because it was an apparent extreme silliness of BS7671 that had not previously occurred to me!

westie101 said:
You know in the days of the earlier editions there was little need for all the bureaucracy, wiring was safe and folk would give clear advice. But not now it seems to be all about covering backs.

Quite so - but that's unfortunately a sign of the changing times - you could say the same about countless fields (dare I mention 'elf & safety - or, at least, people's interpretations thereof ?!).

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 · 19 Jul 2014

EFLImpudence said:
So, will telling him 1mm² and 2.5mm² ensure it is safe?

Of course not - but nor is it likely to make it any less safe (maybe even a little safer, had he been contemplating using 1mm² for both).

EFLImpudence said:
Would it not be better for someone stood in the outbuilding looking at it to tell him exactly how to do it.

Of course it would - and that has already been pointed out to him.

EFLImpudence said:
Why is he so opposed to doing that?

I can't read minds, so leave you to speculate about that.

Kind Regards, John

garlicbread · 19 Jul 2014

angelboy said:
Firstly, I'm going to get a sparks in to do this work so he'll be the final say on the design but I'm a long way off getting him in to design the entire outside garden electrics (lights, Hot Tub, external power, ancillary buildings etc).

I want power to an outbuilding and whilst it's still under construction I thought it might be wise to put in the power cables for the sockets and the light.

For the light I thought a single 1.5mm twin core with earth that runs from the ceiling to the switch then do I put in a 2.5mm twin core with earth running from the switch to wherever the fusebox would be?

Same with the power sockets - would it be a 2.5mm length from the fusebox to the first socket, then another from that to a further socket etc until the last cable comes back to the fusebox area?

1mm t&e for the lighting within the outbuilding (6A MCB)
2.5mm t&e For sockets (radial 16/20A) and depending on load you require turn it into a ring final/ring main (32A MCB)

As for the rest ' Hot Tub, external power, ancillary buildings etc)' and most important the size of the cable to feed the out building get a qualified registered electrician to advise before doing any other work!

And fingers crossed you wire everything correctly otherwise it will be a start over again job. And if you want the electrician to sign the work off he will require to see that the cables have been installed in the correct zones.

ban-all-sheds · 20 Jul 2014

westie101 said:
Until the DIYer decides that the lack of advice on here is insulting and goes his own way.

The advice here has been very good.

Please remember that in his very first post the OP said that he was going to get an electrician to do the work, and the advise he got, including that from electricians who have had to deal with this sort of situation in real life was that in that case he has to ask his electrician what size cables to use, and where and how to install them.

If it was a complicated design involving a full house, factory, shop or other most of the posts on here have merit.

But this is NOT

It's a guy who wants to install a few sockets and a light in an outbuilding saving himself a few quid by pre installing cables!

You do not seem to have taken on board what the declaration on an EIC really says.

For the OP look in the Wiki at the top of the index page (first subject) there are basic circuit designs in there, for what you are doing is not rocket science or needs complicated designs.

Indeed not, but on what basis can he do the design, however trivial, and then make the declaration on the EIC?

ban-all-sheds · 20 Jul 2014

westie101 said:
If you want to over complicate things in honour of the great BS7671 think carefully, again it is NOT the law, it is not a statutory document that MUST be obeyed come what may and throw common sense out of the window.

Indeed it is not.

But what is the law is the requirement to make reasonable provision in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury.

What alternative to BS 7671 would you suggest would be an adequate formal way to ensure that people did make such provision? Because "following common sense" just will not do.

(OK those electricians that have signed their professionalism away to a scheme that insists they must follow it have to)

What a stupid attitude.

Heck look at the discussion about speaker cables on UPVC, trying to decide if they have to be protected by an RCD because that book says so.

There was no such discussion. Please try to improve your reading skills.

UTTERLY RIDICULOUS.

You are trying hard to appear so.

The farm where the cows were getting shocks in the milking parlour
PME supply, parlour rewired by electricians and not made TT
No bonding to steel framed building or any other steel in the parlour
No bonding to steel reinforcing in the floor
All done (or not) by a qualified contractor

Another contractor spent a week trying to solve the problem, installed loads of earth rods
no change

No bonding done or TT done yet again

I visited site and found the fault in 15 minutes
HOW
I meggered the circuits in the parlour and found a N/E fault on a lighting circuit! (it was trapped between some steelwork & the roof

The so called professional electrician had never even though to test the circuits properly.

So - some soi-disant electricians are incompetent.

Your point is?

bernardgreen · 20 Jul 2014

B A S said:
So - some soi-disant electricians are incompetent.

Some are good at installing by the book and incompetent at fault finding

Some are good at fault finding and not so good at installing.

True electricians are competent in both.....

angelboy · 20 Jul 2014

westie101 said:
For the OP look in the Wiki at the top of the index page (first subject) there are basic circuit designs in there, for what you are doing is not rocket science or needs complicated designs.

Thanks for that, should have looked there to start with but I never think of searching the wiki!!

westie101 · 20 Jul 2014

From the rules

Abusive or unhelpful posts are not welcome

What a stupid attitude.

Please try to improve your reading skills.

You are trying hard to appear so.

As you seem BAS to have resorted to personal insult and abuse, I infer that actually you do not have a good argument to counter my points!

However understand this, I come from a background where everything isn't in a book, I am expected to solve problems and restore supplies to customers safely, on budget and within time limits.

If it is not in a book or design (and a lot of stuff isn't) I have to design and implement it myself in conjunction with skilled craftsmen. (in 2011 this included relaying 1.6km of 11kV cable under Wastwater to comply with our requirements, Safety requirements, landowner requirements environmental requirements and keep customers happy whilst doing so. Even getting it to site needed specialist involvement to avoid collapsing 2 bridges
Total cost £1,000,000
Non of that was in any book anywhere)
(oh and dealing with the TV and press as well)

I have known since I started over 40 years ago the the buck stops with me if I get it wrong or kill or injure someone

So it pains me to see folk so dependent on a book and it's associated guides.

I'll finish with this point, in the event of other authorities (Police, Fire, Environmental Health to name 3) finding unsafe electrical installations or needing advice, who do they turn to?
Local electricians? Well round here non will put their head above the parapet and give an answer when asked in case of repercussions
But to DNO staff as we are the only local professionals that can make it safe by disconnecting it and are prepared to make a decision right or wrong!

So do not ever, ever deem to take the above attitude with me until you have stood in my shoes dealing with a major HV fault at 02:00 on Christmas Eve!

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