One For The Regulars

Hey all,

I'm just posting a few images of some doors I've painted in my house over here.

The water based/acrylics are pretty much used everywhere and, in my opinion, the one I've just used has been the best of a decent bunch. Yes, that's right, the best of a decent bunch!
I don't do much hands on painting these days (I give the orders and 'relax' ) but have tried a few different ones in our own house, all being relatively easy to use, with good results. The pros working here all seem to have their own preference, but I think I'll stick to this one from now on.

Obviously, not living in Blighty any longer, I can't really compare the paints here with the progress of the water based ones over there, but I know they are better than those I was using before I left.

I'm just wondering if the finish compares to any of the ones you guys use these days. I gave each door two coats with a dampened synthetic brush and it went on as easy as can be. The finished product looks great to me, considering I'm a bit 'old school' in preferring oil based paints for woodwork.
If the water based paints over there are not getting any better, I can't help but wonder why, when they are fine here, and we do have strict VOC regulations here too.

Apologise if the images aren't great but I just quickly snapped them with my phone, in bad lighting - I'm not sure why the bi-fold doors look different colours because they are not! The finish is High Reflective White, which is an acrylic gloss produced by....a big U.S. paint company whose initials are S.W.!



PS
I don't get much time to reply on here like I used to, what, with all the 'relaxing' I do, but I do try to read as many posts as I can, and it still feels good to be able to help out now and again.

Keep up the good work, chaps and chapesses!

Cheers,
mrH

Possibly Benjamin Moores may be even better than Sherwin Williams

Robbie uk said:

Possibly Benjamin Moores may be even better than Sherwin Williams

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I like their emulsions, and have used some of their trim paints, but now prefer the above for trim.

Benjamin Moore Advanced / the best gloss imo

misterhelpful said:

If the water based paints over there are not getting any better, I can't help but wonder why, when they are fine here, and we do have strict VOC regulations here too.

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Not quite as strict as you can still get General Finishes Arm R Seal there - been banned in the EU since the regs changed.

Urgh....

Waterbased paints!!!!

I still have not found one that doesn't have grain raising qualities.

I fill the wood and sand it down to 320 grit. Apply the first coat of WB primer and then groan as the grain swells higher than the two pack filler. I sand it back, apply another WB primer and then groan as the grain swells..... and so on.

The only waterbased finish that I have found to date that provides an acceptable finish is the Eico range marketed by Ray Munn in Fulham BUT it has virtually no colour obliterating qualities when applying (the white finish over yellowed white paints) by brush. I still need to use OB UC with terebene driers, otherwise I have loads of fisheyes.

And man alive, don't get me started on the issues of sanding waterbased finishes.

I would rather use WB paints but I am not willing to compromise on the quality of finish/longevity. Post the 2010 EU VOC changes where oil based paints became inferior, I now find myself using more of the "dangerous" isocyanate 2 part paints.

I appreciate that I might cause others to take umbrage, but can anyone honestly admit that they can paint bare timber or MDF to a higher quality finish using waterbased finishes Vs solvent based paints?

I understand the regulatory authorities wanting to reduce VOC emissions but IMO their response has been rather naive. Oil based paints yellow faster than before. Waterbased paints require much more energy to produce and are much less durable. I would rather have seen products aimed at the general public being forced to be waterbased, and those used by professions being left as they were.

/endOfRant

Chud said:

Not quite as strict as you can still get General Finishes Arm R Seal there - been banned in the EU since the regs changed.

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The VOC rules are (IMO) pretty clumsy. They relate to solvents that evaporate upwards and ignore the solvents that are heavier and fall downwards (eg actetone). They have very little to do with protecting the person using them.

Waterbased paints are sold as being safer even though exposure to them can (potentially) be as harmful as oil based paints.

opps said:

They relate to solvents that evaporate upwards

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Are you sure? What solvents would those be?

I note that Mr H's doors look like the 'eggbox' style. I've found most alkyd hybrids go over these type of doors quite successfully. I find the challenge comes more from flush doors or smooth finish doors. The dulux u/c is pretty damn good and the gloss is pretty good as well now. It's taken ages for them to get it to a decent standard and obliteration is still an issue. Sikkens satura is good but it's a real pain for runs and drips. I did use some bedec aqua advance in black and that was very easy to apply, but it was only on windows with no broad areas. OB gloss is still terrible for yellowing and really isn't an option for me. It's also interesting that such a small part of the sikkens range is available in the UK. They have a far bigger range that's available in mainland Europe, i can't help wondering that Akzo deliberately make a lot of sikkens products unavailable here because so much money is spent on the fluffy dog. IMO Dulux is the best marketed paint rather than the best paint, a lot of their range is average and getting quite expensive. I also can't help wondering if the dulux trim paints are derivatives or re-badged sikkens products?, their gloss and u/c did get good very quickly after the disasters such as that eco gloss crap they used to produce.
I hope that some of these American paints start to drift over the atlantic if they're as good as you say Mr H, hope your well and happy too.

JohnD said:

Are you sure? What solvents would those be?

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Here is a pretty critical assessment of the VOC set up.

http://www.autobodystore.com/ms17.shtml

"One of the reasons this wouldn’t happen is the fact "not all bad stuff is created equal". Remember, I said "VOC" is the stuff that goes UP into the atmosphere? Well, the stuff that goes DOWN isn’t VOC is it? Not according to the powers that be in our Federal government. Some solvents are "VOC exempt", meaning they have ZERO VOC.

The most obvious would be water, it is used in a number of "waterborne" and "waterbase" products. I would make sense to the layman that water is harmless (relatively) in this context. However, there are many other "VOC exempt" compounds such as acetone and chlorobenzotriflouride (oxhaul sp? trade name). Yep, that’s right, acetone is exempt, zero VOC. These two particular solvents are very heavy, they don’t go UP, instead they go DOWN as they flash off. One day they will likely be banned as well because they contaminate our ground water! But for the time being they are a freebie in the automotive paint industry."

opps said:

our Federal government.

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US regulations?

Or EU ones, if different?

edit
might be directive 2004/42/EC

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/air/pollutants/stationary/paints/paints_legis.htm

It is said to be similar to other national rules, I imagine they came out of an international conference.

It does seem curious.

I found some definitions but am not familiar with the subject. I didn't notice anything that could be interpreted as "up" or "down."

In "Article 2, definitions" http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:31999L0013

16. organic compound shall mean any compound containing at least the element carbon and one or more of hydrogen, halogens, oxygen, sulphur, phosphorus, silicon or nitrogen, with the exception of carbon oxides and inorganic carbonates and bicarbonates;

17. volatile organic compound (VOC) shall mean any organic compound having at 293,15 K a vapour pressure of 0,01 kPa or more, or having a corresponding volatility under the particular conditions of use. For the purpose of this Directive, the fraction of creosote which exceeds this value of vapour pressure at 293,15 K shall be considered as a VOC;

18. organic solvent shall mean any VOC which is used alone or in combination with other agents, and without undergoing a chemical change, to dissolve raw materials, products or waste materials, or is used as a cleaning agent to dissolve contaminants, or as a dissolver, or as a dispersion medium, or as a viscosity adjuster, or as a surface tension adjuster, or a plasticiser, or as a preservative;

19. halogenated organic solvent shall mean an organic solvent which contains at least one atom of bromine, chlorine, fluorine or iodine per molecule;

dcdec said:

I note that Mr H's doors look like the 'eggbox' style. I've found most alkyd hybrids go over these type of doors quite successfully.

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Yes, the doors are the typical pressed/moulded kind. I have to admit that, before I left, I still had a bit of trouble with those doors when it came to water-based paints. I couldn't get one that would cover well and dry properly - they would either dry fine but have poor opacity or cover well but dry patchy. I did eventually manage to get acceptable results but was never 100% happy. I completely agree that flush doors are much harder - I ended up using a 4" Purdy, virtually soaked with water to do them, but still had to complete each coat in under 2.7 seconds to get anything like a decent finish.
I just feel that the paints here apply far easier than the water-based ones I'd used over there ever did and wondered if it was because they are universally improving. It does sound as if they are getting somewhat better over there.

dcdec said:

I hope that some of these American paints start to drift over the atlantic if they're as good as you say Mr H, hope your well and happy too.

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If Donald gets his way, all American products will be made here and shipped to other countries to 'Make America Great Again'.

I'm doing pretty well, thanks. Hope the same goes for you, and all the 'DIYnot'ers.

JohnD said:

I found some definitions but am not familiar with the subject. I didn't notice anything that could be interpreted as "up" or "down."

In "Article 2, definitions" http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:31999L0013

16. organic compound shall mean any compound containing at least the element carbon and one or more of hydrogen, halogens, oxygen, sulphur, phosphorus, silicon or nitrogen, with the exception of carbon oxides and inorganic carbonates and bicarbonates;

17. volatile organic compound (VOC) shall mean any organic compound having at 293,15 K a vapour pressure of 0,01 kPa or more, or having a corresponding volatility under the particular conditions of use. For the purpose of this Directive, the fraction of creosote which exceeds this value of vapour pressure at 293,15 K shall be considered as a VOC;

18. organic solvent shall mean any VOC which is used alone or in combination with other agents, and without undergoing a chemical change, to dissolve raw materials, products or waste materials, or is used as a cleaning agent to dissolve contaminants, or as a dissolver, or as a dispersion medium, or as a viscosity adjuster, or as a surface tension adjuster, or a plasticiser, or as a preservative;

19. halogenated organic solvent shall mean an organic solvent which contains at least one atom of bromine, chlorine, fluorine or iodine per molecule;

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Thanks JohnD.

I had been unaware that the USA and EU use completely different definitions for the phrase VOC.

In the USA it refers to photoreactivity in the troposphere. Hence the reference to heavy and light in the article I linked to.

I clearly need to do more research.

Thanks

misterhelpful said:

Yes, the doors are the typical pressed/moulded kind. I have to admit that, before I left, I still had a bit of trouble with those doors when it came to water-based paints. I couldn't get one that would cover well and dry properly - they would either dry fine but have poor opacity or cover well but dry patchy. I did eventually manage to get acceptable results but was never 100% happy. I completely agree that flush doors are much harder - I ended up using a 4" Purdy, virtually soaked with water to do them, but still had to complete each coat in under 2.7 seconds to get anything like a decent finish.
I just feel that the paints here apply far easier than the water-based ones I'd used over there ever did and wondered if it was because they are universally improving. It does sound as if they are getting somewhat better over there.



If Donald gets his way, all American products will be made here and shipped to other countries to 'Make America Great Again'.

I'm doing pretty well, thanks. Hope the same goes for you, and all the 'DIYnot'ers.

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I was under the impression that when it came to painting doors, many professionals in the USA are more likely to use an airless sprayer than a brush. Am I miss informed?

I have to admit that I am jealous (or envious, can never remember which is the better of the two) that you now have access to excellent brushes at a fraction of the price that we pay on this side of the pond.

I fail to understand why premium American brushes are so much better than the "premium" UK brushes.

Not having used American waterbased finishes I cannot comment on them. Do they seem to be as durable? How do they stand up in steamy rooms for example? The UK WB eggshells seem to soften pretty quickly.