Payment for tiler (withholding payment) query.

Sorry for the wall of text ! looking for some advice
We have recently had our upstairs bathroom completely revamped.

2 guys (related) plumber and tiler . We have used the plumber before (with no issues)

Tiles where going on the walls and on the floor.
The floor was a wooden floor (lifted up and replaced by 18mm marine plywood) as instructed by the plumber & tiler.
I put the floor down (screwed 40/50mm screws every roughly every 8") in the main area (some parts they did, as they need to do the plumbing part

We had some concerns with the tiler, some tiles appeared not right no the walls, was told it will be fine when grout goes in.
on the walls, there would be a big gap at the top (between 15mm and 25mm) he said it was down to the uneven wall.

Some tiles didn't look right (sat out a bit) with at the trim on the wall, was told we got the wrong one it should have been 10mm and not 8mm, we checked, it was 10mm ordered and delivered, he they then it should have been next size up.

I had to push him to tank around the shower (he wasn't going to do it)

When the floor was put in and grouted, a few days later we noticed the grout cracking.

We mentioned it, he redid it. a few days later it started to crack again.
he redid and mixed it with PVA glue and grout


We have paid various amounts over 3 weeks (pretty consistent amounts every friday) (note working from about 9.15am - 1pm)

Since then he has looking final payment, and the amounts we have been paying it each Friday was not the full amounts.
At the start of the job, it was not agreed what it would cost, as there was some unknowns (hot water tank removal and installing a new tank) (he was helping the plumber (who got paid))
However as we where paying the tiler every friday, we thought that was it, at no time did he question more money or hint he would need paid more.

We had a phone conversation on the amount due, and explained being frustrated with the work, (as far as we are concerned its not complete to a satisfactory job)

He says thats the best he can do, and he wants paid.
He just kept on blaming joists & plywood floor , he was being very defensive and aggressive on the phone, he wanted paid and thats that.
We brought up all the issues prior and he kept blaming the walls being not level or away off (main support wall in the house, which is approx 30 years old, we no signs of movement)
We did query at the time and brought it up , taking nearly 3 weeks to do approx 30m2 of tiling is away off (he was helping the plumber, we mentioned if he was working for the plumber he should have got paid by the plumber)

We are currently with holding the payment (approx £400)


We got a joiner in , and he has said joists are not moving (they have been in the house for 30 years, they are not going to move now).
However he was querying the plywood (how long it was left in the house before putting it down) as it can move (and pop out tiles)
He also mentioned the adhesive used to put the tiles down.

We are seeking another tilers opinion (should be around in the next few days)

We now noticed, after having a shower ,the grout (that was cracking ) and nearest to the shower, goes dark (wet) after a 5min shower, (it appears within 15mins)
So it appears at the bottom of the tile , where it meets the shower tray it has not been sealed (is that the plumbers job or tilers job?)

I fully understand its someones livelyhood, he has done a job and is not getting paid for it (and certainly want come back to fix it (though its got to the stage , the relationship has broken down so much we wouldnt want him back in again)
But there is no winners in this situation between us. He is not budging on final payment.

Are we being frankly awkward /prats about the whole situation here?
Any input?

you have a case but some issues should have been settled before the start of any work.
the jobs obvious not right - things like usin PVA in the grout. pva perishes in contact with moisture.
and the suspicius dark stains after a shower.

your in a rock an a hard place. dont pay for bad work but you need a expert opinion if it goes legal - which i doubt it will.
read on the legal issues forum on here how to handle this.

Wood in a bathroom, marine or not marine, can sometimes be dimensionally unstable because of moisture and humidity so should ideally be over-boarded with a cement backer board (like HardieBacker) to minimise deflection and lateral movement.

15-25mm gap? what a complete crock! sounds like he either couldn't be bothered to, or never even knew how to set out correctly. all he needed to do is work it out to have approx half or 3/4 size cut tiles top and bottom and work out where the rest of the cuts in the bathroom would fall, adjusting the height as required.

PVA as Bob said, big no-no! It should be an SBR or a specially designed flexible additive.

Grouts are water resistant so will darken when wet, but the gap between the tray and bottom tile should be siliconed. Usually done by a tiler but it doesn't matter who does it as long as it is done correctly and done before the shower is used.

Personally think you are right to withhold payment because it will be more than £400 to get a good tiler back to complete the work properly.

right update
Got a tiler in 2nd opinion

Should not be straight tiled onto plywood , should be on mesh subfloor (what Paul C said)
25mm gaps at the top. Should have measured it right or tiler being lazy
new Tiler said it should take max 2 days work to the work (not near 2 weeks )
So over paid the work by double now.
Joints in the shower (at the corners) should be siliconed (they are not)
Unnecessary bonding agents used (rendagrip) on the walls.
Trims are not smoothed out, very rough on the edges, with one miss cut by 8mm (filled in with grout)

the advice given , some of the things we knew where not right, and we are not the experts.

Have contacted the original tiler after he sent a message looking paid. Sent a reply back via text and let him know he is not getting paid for work that he is not going to fix (or its unfixable now) .

He came back blaming the joists, (didn't acknowledge any other issues).

So plan of Action
Silicon to be put around the shower tray and at the corners.
See how that goes (for the next month)

then next month:
Toilet and sink to be removed out.
Tiles to be removed from floor.
New tiles to be purchased.
Subfloor membrane to be put down
Floor to be redone again.

Thanks for your help!

At least he's back to fix it... I think. If you have any more doubts then throw them back here Just watch for posts that sound like an absolute crock.

Tiling unfortunately is one of those jobs that a 'handyman' thinks he can turn his hand to and charge full rate to a customer.

Its one thing a DIyer doing it on his own home but another doing as a paying job.

Notch7 said:

Tiling unfortunately is one of those jobs that a 'handyman' thinks he can turn his hand to and charge full rate to a customer.

Its one thing a DIyer doing it on his own home but another doing as a paying job.

Click to expand...

Honestly, some of the things I come across on the retail side of it are... shocking.

B&Q nearby are recommending 6mm plywood and their ready mix floor adhesive for 30x60 porcelain from the last time I checked them out so even the DIY world is getting the brown end of the stick. The upside to DIYing your tiling is that it's a hell of a lot more satisfying.