2 ring finals on one RCBO

Indeed.
at worst, with 26A worth of downstream fuses (2 x 13A plug fuses).
BS1363 does not require double adapters to have a fuse. So with two unfused double adapters in a double socket you could potentially have four plugs with fuses adding up to a total rating of 56A.

But more generally, outside of the specific exceptions for rings, is it acceptable to rely on overcurrent protection that is not part of the fixed installation to protect the fixed wiring? I know the informative appendix suggests that a 20A rated spur from a 32A radial is acceptable but is there anything in the normative part of the regs to back that up?

This is one of those points I've personally never understood: a DSSO on 2.5mm² installed directly from the MCB is:
Perfectly safe and acceptable within the regs if there is something else connected to it but
Is not perfectly safe and acceptable within the regs if there is nothing else connected to it.
The whole system of BS1363 sockets and the circuits that supply them is ultimately built on the assumption that load will be spread around it's unlikely that two (or more) full-sized loads will be connected and used in the same location. BS1363 only requires double sockets to be tested at a total of 20A and BS7671 only requires cables in rings and spurs to be rated at 20A.

That IMO makes a double socket alone on a 32A circuit questionable design regardless of the cable size. At best it's a breaker that is larger than it needs to be for no good reason. At worst it's encouraging people looking for places they can get more power to overload the socket.
 
agreed. PS those death cubes each have a 13A fuse on the 2way variety
I don't think that's necessarily true.

As I understand it, adapters with three or more outlets are required to (and usually do) have a (potentially 13A) fuse in them, but I don't think such a requirement exists for 2-outlet ones (and I certainly have some which have no fuses).

Kind Regards, John
 
BS1363 does not require double adapters to have a fuse. So with two unfused double adapters in a double socket you could potentially have four plugs with fuses adding up to a total rating of 56A.
Give or take your poor arithmetic (13 x 4 = 52), I agree - but that's a separate issue from the one I was talking about.
But more generally, outside of the specific exceptions for rings, is it acceptable to rely on overcurrent protection that is not part of the fixed installation to protect the fixed wiring?
Not in general. However, in the specific case of BS1363 sockets, the only way thay can be used is by plugging BS1363 plugs (each with a 13A max fuse) into them - so the downstream fusing is effectively part of the 'fixed installation'. Your observation about adapters still applies but, as I said, that's a different issue, and I agree it's difficult to understand why there is not a requirement for fuses in 2-outlet adaptors, just as there is for >2-outlet ones.
The whole system of BS1363 sockets and the circuits that supply them is ultimately built on the assumption that load will be spread around it's unlikely that two (or more) full-sized loads will be connected and used in the same location. BS1363 only requires double sockets to be tested at a total of 20A and BS7671 only requires cables in rings and spurs to be rated at 20A.
Agreed, although it's probably true that most households don't even have two 13A loads that they could plug into one double socket.

BS7671 certainly allows the cables of rings to have a minimum CCC of 20A, although it is not totally clear that that also applies to unfused spurs from a ring. Even if it does, I presume that the persistence of that in current versions of BS7671 implies that they share the view (per above) that it is very unlikely that loads totalling >20A will be plugged into a double socket ('for appreciable periods of time').
That IMO makes a double socket alone on a 32A circuit questionable design regardless of the cable size. At best it's a breaker that is larger than it needs to be for no good reason. At worst it's encouraging people looking for places they can get more power to overload the socket.
Other than for the 'adapter' issue, I don't see a problem, given that anything else plugged into a double socket will be providing, at worst, 26A of downstream fuse protection - so, provided that the CCC of the cable is ≥26A, there is no electrical problem.

In any event, if we were talking about Method C 2.5mm² T+E, then the difference between 27A and 32A is pretty 'trivial', particularly given the generous safety margins that undoubtedly exist in the CCC figures that we work with - don't forget that a 32A MCB will allow 46.4A to flow for around an hour, and that a hypothetical cable with a CCC of 32A would be deemed to be adequately protected by it.

Kind Regards, John
 
Why do people keep bringing up the "ring final circuit" with regard to 2.5mm² unfused spurs. It is irrelevant

The situation of the spur is exactly the same on a 32A radial socket circuit and, for that matter, on a standard 32A cooker circuit spur for a plug-in oven.

433.2.2 allows the spur situation wherever that spur originates.
 
Why do people keep bringing up the "ring final circuit" with regard to 2.5mm² unfused spurs. It is irrelevant ... The situation of the spur is exactly the same on a 32A radial socket circuit ...
I don't know about 'exactly the same', since one obviously would not have a multi-socket 32A radial circuit all wired in 2.5mm² cable.

If you're talking about a branch of a radial which only supplies one socket then, yes, the situation is more-or-less identical to that of an unfused spur from a ring - although (given the absence of any "20A CCC dispensation" for radials) 26A downstream protection would not be adequate for 2.5mm² T+E installed by any method other than Method C (whereas, if one believes that the "20A minimum CCC" of 433.1.204 applies to spurs as well as the ring, is not the case with a ring final).

Kind Regards, John
 
So is the consensus of opinion one is designing and installing correctly if one fits a 32A OCPD and a DSSO and wires it with 2.5mm² T&E?
 
I don't know about 'exactly the same', since one obviously would not have a multi-socket 32A radial circuit all wired in 2.5mm² cable.
Obviously I was talking about unfused spurs.

If you're talking about a branch of a radial which only supplies one socket then, yes, the situation is more-or-less identical to that of an unfused spur from a ring - although (given the absence of any "20A CCC dispensation" for radials) 26A downstream protection would not be adequate for 2.5mm² T+E installed by any method other than Method C (whereas, if one believes that the "20A minimum CCC" of 433.1.204 applies to spurs as well as the ring, is not the case with a ring final).
It is not necessary to talk about derating factors negatively affecting a particular stated circuit.

That situation is the same for any circuit and would apply equally to 10mm² cable for a shower.
 
It is not necessary to talk about derating factors negatively affecting a particular stated circuit.
As I said, I think it is necessary IF one believes that 433.1.204 allows an unfused spur from a ring to be connected using cable with a CCC of 20A.

In any other situation (including a one-socket branch of a 32A radial), one would not be 'allowed' to use a cable with a CCC of 20A if all that was protecting it was a 32A device upstream and 26A worth of fuses downstream (only Method C 2.5mm² with no de-rating, hence CCC=27A, would allow that)- but if one believes that the "20A minimum" dispensation of 433.1.204 applies to unfused spurs for rings, it would be allowed in that situation.

Kind Regards, John
 
So is the consensus of opinion one is designing and installing correctly if one fits a 32A OCPD and a DSSO and wires it with 2.5mm² T&E?
In my opinion ...

Assuming that it's not a spur from a ring final, then ...
  • IF the 2.5mm² cable supplies only that one double socket and IF it is installed by Method C and IF there are no de-rating factors (hence CCC = 27A), then Yes.
  • If any of those IFs are not satisfied, then No.
However, if it is a spur from a ring final, then ..
  • If one believes that the "minimum 20A CCC" of 433.1.204 applies to unfused spurs, then, the answer may also be 'Yes' with other installation methods and/or de-rating factors, provided that the resultant CCC was at least 20A.
Kind Regards, John
 
As I said, I think it is necessary IF one believes that 433.1.204 allows an unfused spur from a ring to be connected using cable with a CCC of 20A.
433.1.204 is nothing to do with the spurs so the 20A does not apply.

Proper design of the spur is necessary as it is with anything else.

I think you are scraping the barrel.

In any other situation (including a one-socket branch of a 32A radial), one would not be 'allowed' to use a cable with a CCC of 20A if all that was protecting it was a 32A device upstream and 26A worth of fuses downstream (only Method C 2.5mm² with no de-rating, hence CCC=27A, would allow that)- but if one believes that the "20A minimum" dispensation of 433.1.204 applies to unfused spurs for rings, it would be allowed in that situation.
Therefore one does not believe that which is not true.
 

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