9 wire plugs and the yellow peril - can u help?

[tataylor1]

Hello gents

I would appreciate advice on this please.

I have three single blanking plates behind where a cupboard used to stand.

My plan was remove the blanking plates and attach new wall plates to each box.

This is what was behind each plate:

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• tataylor1
• 13 Jul 2013
• 1

Box 1 has 2 earth wires, 2 red wires, 1 black wire, 1 blue wire and 1 yellow wire.

Box 2: 3 black, 3 red, 3 earth.

Box 3: 3 black, 3 red, 3 earth.

Boxes 2 & 3 I think are straight forward enough but what should be done with box 1?

Thanks in advance for any kind help.

Cheers.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Box 1 has 2 earth wires, 2 red wires, 1 black wire, 1 blue wire and 1 yellow wire.

I would think the red/black comes from one of the adjacent boxes.
You will have to find the other end of the red/yellow/blue.

Box 2: 3 black, 3 red, 3 earth.

Ring circuit plus spur to box 1

Box 3: 3 black, 3 red, 3 earth.

Ring circuit plus spur to another socket.

This is only a guess and proper testing will be required to determine the exact situation as, of course, it could be a complete lash-up.

 

[tataylor1]

Thanks very much.

What could the yellow and blues be attached to? A switch of some kind? There is nothing else in the vicinity except a double socket 3 feet below but I think this is wired separately.

I will see if I can tell where they go to.

If it's not possible is it time to call in the pros? How would this be wired safely?

Tell me if it's stupid, but can I not just dead end these blue and yellows and wire as normal? Giving me the permanent live neutral and earth?

Cheers again, it is helpful.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Tell me if it's stupid, but can I not just dead end these blue and yellows and wire as normal?Giving me the permanent live neutral and earth?

Yes you could do that.

I would advise that you find out how the wiring is actually arranged.
It is not usual to have three single boxes in a row.

Of course it may all be perfectly correct but it is not possible to tell from here.

 

[OwainDIYer]

To start, you need to find out what circuits these are on.

You should not, for example, fit a 13A socket to a 6A lighting circuit.

And what room is it? Arrangements in a kitchen are likely to be different from those in a bedroom.

 

[tataylor1]

Thanks efl, I'll try to find out.

Thanks owain also.

This is a kitchen and these sockets are level with the other wall sockets that are on the adjoining wall, normal above counter sockets. They were hidden behind a floor to ceiling cupboard, just blanked off by a previous owner. I've since removed the cupboard and found them and thought I could just turn them back into working sockets by putting the face plates back on.

This would be ideal as that wall is going to have a normal kitchen work top, leaving these sockets at the typical above counter height.

Three single ones in a row is strange though as efl said. Perhaps I should leave box1 blanked and just use boxes 2 & 3?

Cheers for the advice so far.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

No - you should find out what circuit(s) they are on.

If they are on ring(s) then you need to check that there's only one socket on each spur.

It's quite possible that at position 1 there was one of a pair of 2-way light switches - would one there make sense?

 

[riveralt]

This is a kitchen and these sockets are level with the other wall sockets that are on the adjoining wall, normal above counter sockets. They were hidden behind a floor to ceiling cupboard, just blanked off by a previous owner. I've since removed the cupboard and found them and thought I could just turn them back into working sockets by putting the face plates back on.

This would be ideal as that wall is going to have a normal kitchen work top, leaving these sockets at the typical above counter height.

Do you know what size cables are in the boxes?

Its always difficult to tell from the photographs but the three core and earth conductors/insulation look similar in size to those in the other two back boxes. Which might suggest all three could be part of the lighting circuit rather than a ring final.

The white sheaths 'may' suggest that some diy has taken place and I would want to try and track back where these cables came from before putting sockets on them.

Since it is a kitchen it is quite possible that they were fused connection units (for say cooker hood/fan or other appliance) and/or cupboard lighting switches.

 

[tataylor1]

Do you know what size cables are in the boxes?

No, but i will find out. Apologies, I appreciate your help but I'm obviously not providing enough information so I will take some more pictures tomorrow morning with sizes.

I don't think it's for a kitchen appliance as the wiring for the electric cooker and extractor hood are on a different wall, installed over 10 years ago.

The lighting circuit it may be, for previous under cabinet lights perhaps.

The wiring for all of these sockets comes from above. From the sockets, up the wall and out of sight into the ceiling.

Really grateful for everyones help. I will get more useful pictures on in the morning and hopefully make some progress.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You're going to need to start physically tracing cables, testing for continuity etc.

 

[tataylor1]

Morning! So here are some better pictures. All wiring seems to be the same size, a flattened white oval shape about 10mm across.

Box 1

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• tataylor1
• 14 Jul 2013
• 1

Box 2

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• tataylor1
• 14 Jul 2013
• 1

Box 3

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• tataylor1
• 14 Jul 2013
• 1

Measure

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• tataylor1
• 14 Jul 2013
• 1

All wires go up the wall behind each socket and into the ceiling.

Using a voltage detector, boxes 2 & 3 are live. On my main fusebox is a fuse labelled "sockets" and if I turn this off all of the wall sockets go dead, including these boxes 2 & 3.

Box 1 shows no voltage with the main fuse switched on or off. On an adjacent wall there are under cabinet lights wired into the lighting circuit with their own wall switch, so I tried flicking this on and off but could not detect voltage on box 1.

hopefully this is useful info for a bit more thought.

Really appreciate people's time and advice. Cheers.

 

[riveralt]

According to TLC website (new colour cables only) - Three core and earth 1mm ² is 9.8mm diameter while 1.5mm ² is 11.4mm. Which would seem to confirm that box 1 was a lighting circuit- probably two way. This being the main power switch - which means that the strappers (yellow, blue and red) could be linked to another switch somewhere. Not to be replaced with a socket unless certain alterations are made.

Same website also indicates that 2.5mm ² T&E is approximately 10.3mm wide which would be the correct size for a radial or ring final socket circuit.
In this case both box 2 and 3 have the ring/radial final circuit cables and a spur. Given that this is/was a kitchen it may suggest that box 2 and box 3 were fused connection switch/spurs to another socket or appliance - or they were sockets themselves.

Add this to the physical tests you made with the circuits mcb it would suggest that you could make box 2 and 3 sockets.

For a ring final circuit I would expect a 32A Mcb and two lives in the live terminal of the Mcb. Only real way to know though is by testing.

The only other odd thing, which is causing me some doubt, is why the installer hasn't simply run the ring/radial across the boxes instead of apparently running them up to the ceiling and back down again for boxes 2 and 3?

 

[JohnW2]

Morning! So here are some better pictures. All wiring seems to be the same size, a flattened white oval shape about 10mm across.

Is that true? your final pic, with the ruler (which I assume is box 1) seems to show the cable on the left as about 7mm and the one on the right as about 10mm. That makes total sense and it seems very probable that there was once a (possibly/probably two-gang) light switch there - although your tests suggest that those cables may no longer be connected to anything.

The other two boxes are clearly part of a live sockets circuit (probably a ring, but possibly a radial), but both have spurs going off to unknown places.

Kind Regards, John

 

[riveralt]

Is that true? your final pic, with the ruler (which I assume is box 1) seems to show the cable on the left as about 7mm and the one on the right as about 10mm.

I think box 3 is the close up photograph - the scars on the sheath seem to match.

 

[JohnW2]

According to TLC website (new colour cables only) - Three core and earth 1mm ² is 9.8mm diameter while 1.5mm ² is 11.4mm. Which would seem to confirm that box 1 was a lighting circuit- probably two way. This being the main power switch - which means that the strappers (yellow, blue and red) could be linked to another switch somewhere. Not to be replaced with a socket unless certain alterations are made.

Indeed - either a 2-gang light switch (one being two-way) or a single 2-way light switch plus a power feed. However, if our assumptions are correct, I can't really see what (practical) "certain alterations" could be made to allow one to to connect a socket to either of those cables. Am I missing something?

Kind Regards, John