adjacent rear extensions - leave the gap or build a party wall

[dfk778]

Hi all, we need an advice in the following situation:

We live in the end-of terrace house, in Greenwich. We intend to replace our 3.5 meters deep conservatory to a proper extension 4.5 meters deep (similar to what a number of houses in our area have done). Our (terrace side) neighbours intend to build 3.5 meters extension and, unaware of our plans, have just submitted their plans for permitted development, without building on the boundary.

We are on good terms with our neighbours and it seems to us that it will be good to build a common party wall between extensions, potentially saving on costs and getting a bit more space each. However, the constrains are - (1) we (and they) want to make it as much legal as possible, so we don't have any problems reselling our houses in the future (2) they have already submitted plans for permitted development and re-submitting the plans will cost more time and money (and they have already a builder booked in January) (3) some conflicting advise we are getting from our and their architects is that although they building 3.5 extension and it can build on the party wall line; we are building 4.5 meters and therefore we can not build on party wall line in any case (at least legally) and we will need to step away from their (newly) build extension 15cm

What is the best course of action in our situation?

Thanks, D

 

[wessex101]

In my opinion a shared party wall built astride the boundary is the best solution. If your extension is deeper I would suggest you could still extend the party wall out for the full 4.5m depth astride the boundary.

A formal party wall agreement can be drawn up, signed and witnessed by both sets of neighbours to create a legally binding agreement.

Just remember that it becomes a separating wall so you will need to comply with sound transmission and fire separation regulations.

 

[^woody^]

If you both intend to build on the boundary and share the wall, then you dont need a PW agreement - it's a joint enterprise.

 

[motorbiking]

Is this neighbour on your semi-detatched side or are you proposing to infill between two end of terraces? If its the first, I reckon a decent, matching build will add more to the value, give you less problems and probably be a bit cheaper for both.

 

[dfk778]

Thanks guys. Yes, we are of the opinion that building a joint separation wall will be better. The question is about formal technicalities, how do we do it 'formally'.

I've finally got through to Greenwich planning department today and they have basically told me that where we or our neighbours build the wall, inside the property of on the boundary is not their business and if we have an agreement then we can build either. Although I did not ask them explicitly if we (or neighbours) need to actually show in the application the wall on the boundary or not..

So after some more clarifications the plan of action looks like:
(1) neighbours leave their application 'as is' showing building on their land only
(2) we refuse their party wall notice, and in the refusal suggest to build a common separating wall on the boundary line
(3) if they do not agree, i.e. they want to build on their land only - fine, we just monitor that they build sufficiently deep foundations and do not encroach on our land, especially with foundations, since we will need to dig up few months later
(4) If they agree to build a common party/separating wall, they serve us a notice about change of plans that they want to build on the boundary and we agree to this and we draft and sign some agreement with them about building common separation wall, costs and future maintenance etc
(4.1) The party wall surveyor I've just spoken to is of the opinion that moving a wall few centimetres to a party line is not a "major" change and should not involve planning department
(5) instruct builder build it fully when he builds their extension or at least build common foundation from the start, structural engineer and party wall surveyor overseeing works on this stage.
(6) we then build right next to them, without gap. [not sure here if we need to actually draw this in the plans]

comments welcome. Do we actually need to submit plans showing the (both or one of us) building on the party wall line, or we just submit "as is" (1, 4 and 6)

 

[^woody^]

Lol.

You just build it!

 

[dfk778]

Lol.

You just build it!

: )) I need to convince my neighbours as well!

 

[wessex101]

I did one recently, I tried to get the neighbours to draw up an agreement between themselves but the adjoining owner was understandably nervous and wanted a formal "legal" agreement. To push things along as the builder was waiting to start I was appointed as agreed surveyor and prepared a party wall award and schedule of condition to cover the building owners excavation works as the neighbour was not planning to build their extension for a couple of years and was worried about damage to their house and also a separate agreement to cover building the new party wall which both sets of neighbours signed and had witnessed.

In that case the building owner waived his right to claim half the cost of building the new party wall as he was quite chuffed at gaining an extra foot but in OP's case I think sharing the cost would be reasonable, but probably not the extra metre for the OP's deeper extension.

It can be quite straight forward and as OP will not need the party wall award needn't cost too much.

 

[wessex101]

Lol.

You just build it!

Who pays for the wall?

 

[^woody^]

Who pays for the wall?

Tricky.

The bloke at nr 72?

 

[RichA]

Split it 4.5:3.5 (56%:44%).

 

[wessex101]

My point being that it is probably worth getting something agreed in writing, even if it is only scribbled on the back of a fag packet.

One sticking point with my recent case was agreeing exactly where the boundary actually was and documenting it on a plan. It turned out it was much further over than both neighbours thought as they were basing it on where the wall paint changed colour. I can imagine major falling out between neighbours if it is done on an informal "gentleman's" agreement and then trying to re-visit the agreement when one of the neighbours feels aggrieved.

 

[^woody^]

My point being that it is probably worth getting something agreed in writing, even if it is only scribbled on the back of a fag packet.

One sticking point with my recent case was agreeing exactly where the boundary actually was and documenting it on a plan. It turned out it was much further over than both neighbours thought as they were basing it on where the wall paint changed colour. I can imagine major falling out between neighbours if it is done on an informal "gentleman's" agreement and then trying to re-visit the agreement when one of the neighbours feels aggrieved.

Nah. There is no need to complicate things.

Both are having an extension, whoever is starting first (if two different builders) just cracks on and builds the wall. The boundary between two attached houses is not rocket science - it's smack bang center of the party wall and (most likely) then just square off the house.

The one neighbour just allows access etc for the wall to be built.

It really is simple.

The only technical issues are where (how) does the one builder leave the wall ready for the adjacent extension to continue, and then the roof junction/connection.

There is nothing really to be suspicious of, or any need for "legal" agreements. When it's done, all will be clear what's what.

For the shared wall and foundations, then it's a case of measuring the wall, and then for the shared portion, each pays half, and then the OP pays for the extra 1m as that is his use only. But if the OP can agree for a complete 50/50 spilt then all the better.

 

[dfk778]

Thanks wessex, thanks woody,

yes, it seems not that complicated to me now. Our architect & party wall surveyor are ready to draw the agreement, party wall surveyor and greenwich planning think it is not an issue of planning and I am ready to split the costs of a build, it is not a problem.

I will have some task to convince the neighbours, as they had a chat with my wife yesterday and they have told us that from what they heard from "everyone" is that this common wall will complicate things when building and then potentially when selling the property, so they are not keen on it and want to build separately. This is fine, it is their right after all, but it is a bit sad from my point of view, our houses here are already quite narrow. Anyway, I will appoint surveyor of my own, may be he will be able to convince them, and if not then he will monitor that stuff is indeed build to the standard and will not interfere with our proposed build few months down the line

 

[^woody^]

The problem with you appointing a surveyor, is that you will end up paying his costs, plus any costs if the neighbour appoints their own, and potentially a third surveyor too. And after all this the neighbour will benefit with a shared wall at your expense.

If you are willing for all this and consider the extra few inches worth it, then go for it.

Remind him that the common wall, is extactly the same as the common wall that you already have between you both. If that does not cause a probelm, then why should an extenion of it cause a problem.