Another Odd One

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But we found the cause (sort of)

So on Friday we got a job appear where an electrician had been called to a group of three holiday lodges.
Each of these lodges has a hot tub and voltages of about 66V were being measured between the water and the surrounding tiled floor, on each one.

The supply to the lodges is via a 2 wire 11kV line and a 50kVA transformer, from this an underground cable feeds the lodges, each with a separate supply and 2 "industrial" units.
The area being an old quarry, then a transport depot and is in the process of being redeveloped
Earthing is PME (TN-C-S) to all the properties.

Staff attending on Friday could find nothing obvious but by disconnecting at the service positions confirmed 66 volts between the neutral and true earth. They did however disconnect the HV and carefully inspected all the wiring on the transformer.
To maintain supplies, the lodges were connected to individual 20kVA generators over night.

On Saturday the investigations continued with efforts being made to gain access to check the two industrial units, when this was looking unsuccessful the decision was made to excavate the service cables and disconnect the supplies in turn to see if the fault location could be found.

After cutting the cable to the first one, the voltage on the neutral disappeared!
Shortly after this the owner arrived to give access. Inspection showed that this unit did not even have a consumer unit! The supply went from the cut-out via the meter to a 100A Switch Fuse from which all the secondary circuits were fed, nor was there any sign of earthing or bonding!
The supply was permanently disconnected on safety grounds.

Following this the generators were removed and supplies restored to normal.

Something different to think about
 
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... but by disconnecting at the service positions confirmed 66 volts between the neutral and true earth. ... After cutting the cable to the first one, the voltage on the neutral disappeared!
Shortly after this the owner arrived to give access. Inspection showed that this unit did not even have a consumer unit! The supply went from the cut-out via the meter to a 100A Switch Fuse from which all the secondary circuits were fed, nor was there any sign of earthing or bonding!
Am I missing a consequent explanation for the 66V N-E pd?

Did the 'secondary circuits' have (appropriate) OPDs? If they did, would that (together with the 100A switch-fuse), in functional terms, be materially different from an installation with a 'consumer unit'?

Kind Regards, John
 
Did the 'secondary circuits' have (appropriate) OPDs? If they did, would that (together with the 100A switch-fuse), in functional terms, be materially different from an installation with a 'consumer unit'?

The only protection apart from our 100A fuse was whatever size fuse was in the switch-fuse.
So the supposition is that there is a possibly L-N or E fault but impedance is not high enough to operate either of the devices
 
The only protection apart from our 100A fuse was whatever size fuse was in the switch-fuse. ... So the supposition is that there is a possibly L-N or E fault but impedance is not high enough to operate either of the devices
Interesting. I think I must have got this wrong since, by my reckoning, to get a 66V N-E pd on a PME supply would mean that something approaching 200A would be flowing - if that werethe case, and such a current were flowing continuously, would it surprise you that no fuse operated - or, indeed, that such a current (through whatever fault path) did not result in some fire/smoke/whatever?

Does anyone have any idea how long this has been going on? Again I think I must have got it wrong because, as far as I can make out, one would be talking about something like 1000 kWh per day if such a current were flowing continuously - so the reading on that installation's meter might be 'interesting' :)

Where have I gone wrong?

Kind Regards, John
 
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I think it has started fairly recently as the electrician was only called on Friday I understand.

The current flow could be anything as in these circumstances we have seen similar from faulty kettles, trapped wiring causing a N-E fault and others.
 
Westie Do you happen to know if the meter used to measure the voltage between Neutral and True Ground was high or low impedance ?

If the geographically layout was

HV tranny,,,,,,,lodges,,,,,,,,,,,Ind..Units

then a Live to Ground fault in the industrial unit would create a voltage gradient across the ground as the fault current flowed from Live at the Ind. unit, through the ground to the Neutral at the tranny. The impedance of the Ground would be high enough to limit the current to be less than that which would blow the fuses.

If the voltage Live to Neutral in the lodges was 230 ( nominal ) and Live to True Ground was 230 - 66 then this would confirm an earth current from the Ind unit to the tranny.
 
Bernard

Meter type unknown but either a standard Fluke of the type incorporated in a Megger.

The layout is as you describe so that solution is quite likely.

Apart from disconnecting the unit no other investigation was carried out in it
 
The current flow could be anything as in these circumstances we have seen similar from faulty kettles, trapped wiring causing a N-E fault and others.
I don't really get that - and, incidentally, I've subsequently realised that I probably underestimated the current by a factor of 2 (since I used an estimated Ze, rather than 'external Zn') ...

... if your N conductor is connected to true earth at the tranny and if the Ze is 0.35 Ω (hence the external Zn 0.175 Ω), then if there is a pd of 66V between the consumer end of the conductor and true earth, then surely there must be 66/0.175 = 377A flowing through the conductor (i.e. 'nearly 400A', as opposed to the nearly 200A' I previously suggested), mustn't there? How could you get a pd of 66V across an impedance of 0.175Ω with less current than that flowing?

... or, when you say 'between neutral and true earth', do you perhaps not mean quite 'true earth'??

Kind Regards, John
 
John

The Neutral at the lodges has the same potential as it does at the tranny. There is no significant current flowing in the Neutral and hence no voltage drop along it.

It is the current through the ground that is making the potential of the Ground at the lodges different from the potential of the Ground at the tranny.
 
John ... The Neutral at the lodges has the same potential as it does at the tranny. There is no significant current flowing in the Neutral and hence no voltage drop along it. ... It is the current through the ground that is making the potential of the Ground at the lodges different from the potential of the Ground at the tranny.
Yes, if that is what's going on, then I agree. As I wrote:
... or, when you say 'between neutral and true earth', do you perhaps not mean quite 'true earth'??
With your (very reasonable) hypothesised situation, what westie described as "66V between neutral and true earth" was actually no such thing - rather, it was 66V between neutral and something (a local earth rod, perhaps - he didn't say) which had been raised to 66V above true earth potential.

Kind Regards, John
 

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