What made you decide that, Dave? If there are no motorised valves, then it can't be fully pumped, can it?
Where does the live feed to the pump come from exactly?
Anyone know this please?
- Thread starter davethemuppet
- Start date
Yep 4 pipes.
I am just trying to suss this system fault out. Bottom line, there are 4 pipes to /from the boiler that I can see from above (pump cupboard direcxtly above boiler). That suggests that it is two in and two out, ie gravity HW & pumped CH. The jumper on the timer suggests that too.
Now, the strange bit is the pump coming on regardless of whether it is HW or CH demand, which to me suggest a possible wiring problem at the controller? The diagram for the controller only shows 6 connections: L, N, A,B,C & D. As I read it if B & C were on wrongly, the system would do what it is. Or am I barking up the wrong tree here?
I really need to do as suggested above and check exactly where the live feed to teh pump comes from. Wiring in this house was done by Stevie wonder though
I will hopefully figure that part out in the morning. I would just like it to work correctly and my knowledge is limited to what I am picking up as I go really.
Am I right in that there should NOT be an AGV then?
I am just trying to suss this system fault out. Bottom line, there are 4 pipes to /from the boiler that I can see from above (pump cupboard direcxtly above boiler). That suggests that it is two in and two out, ie gravity HW & pumped CH. The jumper on the timer suggests that too.
Now, the strange bit is the pump coming on regardless of whether it is HW or CH demand, which to me suggest a possible wiring problem at the controller? The diagram for the controller only shows 6 connections: L, N, A,B,C & D. As I read it if B & C were on wrongly, the system would do what it is. Or am I barking up the wrong tree here?
I really need to do as suggested above and check exactly where the live feed to teh pump comes from. Wiring in this house was done by Stevie wonder though
I will hopefully figure that part out in the morning. I would just like it to work correctly and my knowledge is limited to what I am picking up as I go really.Am I right in that there should NOT be an AGV then?
I agree, probably a mis-wired programmer. Trace out all the wiring (boring but worth it).
With HW on, only the boiler's gas valve should be energised.
With CH on, both the boiler and pump should be energised. (You can't have CH only with this type of system, the water will heat too.)
I have seen systems with no motorised valves and no AGVs
With HW on, only the boiler's gas valve should be energised.
With CH on, both the boiler and pump should be energised. (You can't have CH only with this type of system, the water will heat too.)
I have seen systems with no motorised valves and no AGVs
Thanks Chris. It is 30+ years since I did plumbing for a job. Now I remember why I hated it so much LOL. I was just confused because it looked like two pipes only going to the boiler, but that turned out to be the gas pipe in and anm old water supply pipe that went nowhere. The actual pipes are burried in the chimney void.
The fact the pump comes on regardless must be a wiring problem I am sure, so yes, I will trace all of it tomorrow and report back good/bad result.
The fact the pump comes on regardless must be a wiring problem I am sure, so yes, I will trace all of it tomorrow and report back good/bad result.
Just in case anyone is wondering, I haven't had a chance to check the wiring yet. I will though and will report back here as you have helped and it may help someone else in the future o know too.
Cheers
Dave
Cheers
Dave
Hey people. I was uneable to get to look at my wiring until today, so sorry for the delayed reply.
Well, it is very difficult for me to definitely see what is going on, but here is what I do know:
The wiring to the backplate SEEMS correct from what I can tell. The only query I had there was whether pins 3 and 4 were on back to front, so I changed them around to check. With them like that the light for water comes on but no boiler. Obviously incorrect so changed back.
The situation I have at the moment is back where we started. We haven't programmed the programmer yet, it is effectively off unless we use the boost as the weather is not yet cold enough to have it on and off unneecessarily. So when we want heat, we use the heat 'boost' button which gives us 1 hr of lovely central heating. BUT, if we want just water, we hit the water 'boost' button instead. The water does get hot, but the bloody radiators do too and that is because even with just water selected, the pump goes.
I am a little baffled by the wiring if I am honest here. Let me just do the pump here and perhaps someone can advise me accordingly? There is a heavy (45amp) cable to the pump islotaing switch. There are then two other cables. a 3 core cable (blue-red-yellow) from the programmer and the flex to the pump itself. With the pump isolated, the boiler will not work. With the pump live, it runs all the time the boiler is on. I hope that makes sense.
The backplate seems sort of straightforward. Neutral to N, Live to L, Earth to E. Nothing to pins 1 & 2, Yellow to pin 3, red to pin 4.
So, although I can get HW AND CH, or just CH, I cannot get just HW.
The system comprises again:
Back boiler, Tempus seven programmer, main isoltaing switch (below programmer), isolating switch for pump, and the pump itself. The water side is indirect cylinder, two tanks in loft, gavity fed HW with pumped CH.
Anyone got any ideas of what I can check next?
Cheers
Dave
Well, it is very difficult for me to definitely see what is going on, but here is what I do know:
The wiring to the backplate SEEMS correct from what I can tell. The only query I had there was whether pins 3 and 4 were on back to front, so I changed them around to check. With them like that the light for water comes on but no boiler. Obviously incorrect so changed back.
The situation I have at the moment is back where we started. We haven't programmed the programmer yet, it is effectively off unless we use the boost as the weather is not yet cold enough to have it on and off unneecessarily. So when we want heat, we use the heat 'boost' button which gives us 1 hr of lovely central heating. BUT, if we want just water, we hit the water 'boost' button instead. The water does get hot, but the bloody radiators do too and that is because even with just water selected, the pump goes.
I am a little baffled by the wiring if I am honest here. Let me just do the pump here and perhaps someone can advise me accordingly? There is a heavy (45amp) cable to the pump islotaing switch. There are then two other cables. a 3 core cable (blue-red-yellow) from the programmer and the flex to the pump itself. With the pump isolated, the boiler will not work. With the pump live, it runs all the time the boiler is on. I hope that makes sense.
The backplate seems sort of straightforward. Neutral to N, Live to L, Earth to E. Nothing to pins 1 & 2, Yellow to pin 3, red to pin 4.
So, although I can get HW AND CH, or just CH, I cannot get just HW.
The system comprises again:
Back boiler, Tempus seven programmer, main isoltaing switch (below programmer), isolating switch for pump, and the pump itself. The water side is indirect cylinder, two tanks in loft, gavity fed HW with pumped CH.
Anyone got any ideas of what I can check next?
Cheers
Dave
I
ianblue
Well it does sound like a wiring fault which requires a systematic check.
Remove the programmer.
Disconnect the wire from terminal four ( you could get a feedback so keep it clear)and connect a short wire to that terminal.
Replace the controller and check when Hot Water only is selected there is no feed from terminal 4 into your short wire.
Assuming that is ok you need to follow the original wire from terminal 4. It should go to the room thermostat and then to the pump.
Remove the programmer.
Disconnect the wire from terminal four ( you could get a feedback so keep it clear)and connect a short wire to that terminal.
Replace the controller and check when Hot Water only is selected there is no feed from terminal 4 into your short wire.
Assuming that is ok you need to follow the original wire from terminal 4. It should go to the room thermostat and then to the pump.
Thank you VERY much. I will do that tomorrow and report back either way.
Ok, checked terminal 4 this morning as advised. With water only, no feed. So, popped wire back on and moved on.
Now, although I thought the pump was running, it seems I may have been wrong - happy to say so if I am as well. I just popped the water only on and ran upstairs to hear the pump, but cannot hear it running. Popped back down and triggered the CH and the pump does indeed start. So, that moves us on to another aspect.....
The thermostat has been set to maximum in error. I asked she who must be obeyed to turn it all the way off the other day and thought that was done,. but no. It was all the way to max. Now, with just the HW on the rads started getting hot as usual, but I am now wondering if it is possible that the thermostat had anything to do with that? I cannot see how as (as far as I know) the thermostat simply tells the pump to switch on or off surely?
This may sound like a daft question, but is it possible that everything is wired up correctly, and the rads are simply getting hot under gravity?
EDIT:
Just tried again. HW nly on boost, CH off. No pump activation, thermostat to min. HW gets nice and hot BUT upstairs rads are hot too. Downstairs stay cold.
So, that suggests to me that in fact the electrical side is working correctly after all. But because of the layout of the plumbing, when the HW gets hot the top rads get hot too. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense as well.
If anyone can confirm my thoughts I would be very obliged. Let me give the system layout again:
Ground floor, back boiler, thermostat, programmer etc. 3 rads. First floor, 3 rads, HW cylinder, pump. Loft, two tanks - one for HW one for CH.
So, gravity HW with pumped CH.
When HW obly is set on, HW works but top rads get hot and that is because they are level with the HW cylinder. Does that sound about right?
Cheers
Dave
Now, although I thought the pump was running, it seems I may have been wrong - happy to say so if I am as well. I just popped the water only on and ran upstairs to hear the pump, but cannot hear it running. Popped back down and triggered the CH and the pump does indeed start. So, that moves us on to another aspect.....
The thermostat has been set to maximum in error. I asked she who must be obeyed to turn it all the way off the other day and thought that was done,. but no. It was all the way to max. Now, with just the HW on the rads started getting hot as usual, but I am now wondering if it is possible that the thermostat had anything to do with that? I cannot see how as (as far as I know) the thermostat simply tells the pump to switch on or off surely?
This may sound like a daft question, but is it possible that everything is wired up correctly, and the rads are simply getting hot under gravity?
EDIT:
Just tried again. HW nly on boost, CH off. No pump activation, thermostat to min. HW gets nice and hot BUT upstairs rads are hot too. Downstairs stay cold.
So, that suggests to me that in fact the electrical side is working correctly after all. But because of the layout of the plumbing, when the HW gets hot the top rads get hot too. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense as well.
If anyone can confirm my thoughts I would be very obliged. Let me give the system layout again:
Ground floor, back boiler, thermostat, programmer etc. 3 rads. First floor, 3 rads, HW cylinder, pump. Loft, two tanks - one for HW one for CH.
So, gravity HW with pumped CH.
When HW obly is set on, HW works but top rads get hot and that is because they are level with the HW cylinder. Does that sound about right?
Cheers
Dave
Hi dave
Yes, your upstairs rads are heating on gravity due to a faulty/not installed anti gravity valve
you need to either
replace it/install one
upgade to W-Plan (better)
or convert to fully pumped (better still)
Matt
Yes, your upstairs rads are heating on gravity due to a faulty/not installed anti gravity valve
you need to either
replace it/install one
upgade to W-Plan (better)
or convert to fully pumped (better still)
Matt
I
ianblue
Well I am glad you have sussed the problem as Matt says, looks like your rads are being gravity fed.
As you will eventually install a combi system I would be inclined to opt for the anti gravity valve. That will solve your problem for the coming winter.
Alterativley if you can pick up a cheap 2port valve these normally have end switches which can easily be wired in, to start the pump when the valve has opened. They are available in compression fittings.
Good luck
Ian
Here is the very thing brand new 40mins to go http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honeywell...arden_Hearing_Cooling_Air&hash=item415eda708b
Just went for £5.50
As you will eventually install a combi system I would be inclined to opt for the anti gravity valve. That will solve your problem for the coming winter.
Alterativley if you can pick up a cheap 2port valve these normally have end switches which can easily be wired in, to start the pump when the valve has opened. They are available in compression fittings.
Good luck
Ian
Here is the very thing brand new 40mins to go http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honeywell...arden_Hearing_Cooling_Air&hash=item415eda708b
Just went for £5.50
Thanks guys. I missed that one, but at least I know where to go with this.
So, if I get a motorised 2 way valve, it goes where exactly? And did you say it controils the pump? So what triggers the valev to open/close?
I may be being a bit dense here, but if you don't ask........
Cheers
Dave
So, if I get a motorised 2 way valve, it goes where exactly? And did you say it controils the pump? So what triggers the valev to open/close?
I may be being a bit dense here, but if you don't ask........
Cheers
Dave
I
ianblue
The 2 way valve would go on either the flow or return to the heating circuit( it has to go in the correct direction of flow) ie in series with the pump.
The feed from No4 on the programmer will go the thermostat. The other side the thermostat will go to the valve motor (other connection of motor going to neutral) this will cause the valve to open when the thermostat calls for heat. There is a switch within the valve and when the valve motors open the switch will close energising the pump and boiler which appear to be connected together at the moment.
The wire which is connected to the switch is looped in with the wire coming from the thermostat. The other wire from the switch connects to pump and boiler.
Its not as complicated as it sounds.
ps. I should just add this description is assuming a spring return normally closed 2 port valve such as the Honeywell V4043H
The feed from No4 on the programmer will go the thermostat. The other side the thermostat will go to the valve motor (other connection of motor going to neutral) this will cause the valve to open when the thermostat calls for heat. There is a switch within the valve and when the valve motors open the switch will close energising the pump and boiler which appear to be connected together at the moment.
The wire which is connected to the switch is looped in with the wire coming from the thermostat. The other wire from the switch connects to pump and boiler.
Its not as complicated as it sounds.
ps. I should just add this description is assuming a spring return normally closed 2 port valve such as the Honeywell V4043H
This is all making sense now and I look like my namesake! What a muppet (me). First I thought this, then I thought that.... turns out everything is electrically ok AFAIK and it is a common problem without that valve from what I now gather.
The pipework all is burried in a vertical void between the chimney and the drywall, so I can only look down on the boiler pipes from upstairs if that makes sense. Other than ripping the fire out and looking at the boiler pipework itself, I may never know if that valve was fitted and failed, or just not fitted.
Either way, the above post is MOST helpful. I am guessing then that currently no4 feed goes to the thermostat, then from the thermostat to the pump, which in turn triggers the boiler. So, I need to get into the 22mm pipe from the boiler on its way to the pump to put the honeywell (or similar) valve in. Then interupt the feed from the thermostat on its way to the pump and divert that to the new valve, taking a new feed from the valve on to the pump to complete. Does that sound about right?
I suppose ideally, I need that valve lower down the system, ie just outside the boiler really to stop any heat rising up the CH circuit past the valve or I could install the valve upstairs just below the pump and still have the same problem as the pump is above the pipewoprk for the CH circuit upstairs.
What do you guys reckon?
The pipework all is burried in a vertical void between the chimney and the drywall, so I can only look down on the boiler pipes from upstairs if that makes sense. Other than ripping the fire out and looking at the boiler pipework itself, I may never know if that valve was fitted and failed, or just not fitted.
Either way, the above post is MOST helpful. I am guessing then that currently no4 feed goes to the thermostat, then from the thermostat to the pump, which in turn triggers the boiler. So, I need to get into the 22mm pipe from the boiler on its way to the pump to put the honeywell (or similar) valve in. Then interupt the feed from the thermostat on its way to the pump and divert that to the new valve, taking a new feed from the valve on to the pump to complete. Does that sound about right?
I suppose ideally, I need that valve lower down the system, ie just outside the boiler really to stop any heat rising up the CH circuit past the valve or I could install the valve upstairs just below the pump and still have the same problem as the pump is above the pipewoprk for the CH circuit upstairs.
What do you guys reckon?
I
ianblue
Well Dave it sounds as though you have a complete understanding of the system now.
Not entirely sure I can visualise your last sentence but the valve needs to be in the flow before any branch takes off.
Not entirely sure I can visualise your last sentence but the valve needs to be in the flow before any branch takes off.
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