Brokenwood Mystery is it possible?

[ericmark]

Just finished watching a Brokenwood Mystery on UK Drama, where the country singer was killed by putting the guitar in the bath with her, but raises a few questions.
1) Is the enough power or voltage in a electric guitar to kill anyone?
2) Are they permitted to have no RCD protection in hotels in New Zealand?
Come to that what about UK, if some one was killed in the bath in any property which did not belong to the deceased, with the power still on when found, would the owner be found guilty of manslaughter because the RCD failed to work? Be it a rented property, hotel, guest house what ever, if the RCD fails to trip, or is missing, would it be considered as manslaughter?

 

[conny]

I would imagine if there was an RCD fitted and 'believed' to be working then it would be hard to hold the owner of the property responsible for negligence, especially if the test and inspections were up to date, (which may have last been carried out 4 years prior but still considered up to date).
However, if it was discovered the RCD, or indeed any part of the electrical system, had been tampered with then that would open a whole new kettle of fish.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Just finished watching a Brokenwood Mystery on UK Drama, where the country singer was killed by putting the guitar in the bath with her, but raises a few questions.

..and the other question which is...

Would such a voltage gradient apply sufficient voltage to kill a person. I am not convinced, even if mains powered.

 

[333rocky333]

Surely a guitar plugs into an amps output and the Rcd if any would be on the amps supply and not protecting the output

 

[JohnW2]

1) Is the enough power or voltage in a electric guitar to kill anyone?

If it were mains powered, there certainly could be, assuming there were earthed things around (which is quite likely) in a ath.

2) Are they permitted to have no RCD protection in hotels in New Zealand?

No idea, but I doubt it. However, despite misconceptions, RCDs are no guarantee against death from electric shocks.

Come to that what about UK, if some one was killed in the bath in any property which did not belong to the deceased, with the power still on when found, would the owner be found guilty of manslaughter because the RCD failed to work? Be it a rented property, hotel, guest house what ever, if the RCD fails to trip, or is missing, would it be considered as manslaughter?

As conny has said, merely being 'in charge of' an RCD which failed to work cannot, in itself, be enough for the person to be guilty of manslaughter - RCDs do sometimes become faulty and, unless it is tested every minute, no-one can be expected to necessarily know when that has happened. As conny has said, it surely could only be manslaughter if there were serious negligence in relation to 'taking reasonable steps' (and that doesn't include 'testing it every minute'!) to ensure that the RCD was functional - and I imagine that, in practice, that would often be difficult/impossible to prove, particularly if the person asserted (without any means of disproving him/her) that it was tested regularly.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Surely a guitar plugs into an amps output and the Rcd if any would be on the amps supply and not protecting the output

In relation to this incredibly unusual event, people might be contemplating a fault which resulted in mains voltage reaching the instrument.

I seem to vaguely recall, in the dim and distant past, case(s) of a person, or persons, being electrocuted on-stage by a guitar. Did I dream that? Of course, that was very probably in the days of valve amplifiers being ubiquitous, with plenty of high voltages within them, quite apart from the 'mains voltage' supplying them - and, in such a case, as you say, even an RCD (on the mains supply) would not have offered any protection.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

I seem to vaguely recall, in the dim and distant past, case(s) of a person, or persons, being electrocuted on-stage by a guitar. Did I dream that? Of course, that was very probably in the days of valve amplifiers being ubiquitous, with plenty of high voltages within them, quite apart from the 'mains voltage' supplying them - and, in such a case, as you say, even an RCD (on the mains supply) would not have offered any protection.

No, you didn't dream it - I remember the report too.

 

[JohnW2]

No, you didn't dream it - I remember the report too.

Thanks for the reassurance! I have an even vaguer recollection that it might even have been a fairly 'significant' performer who died, but I'm less sure about that. I'll see if Mr Google knows

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Thanks for the reassurance! I have an even vaguer recollection that it might even have been a fairly 'significant' performer who died, but I'm less sure about that. I'll see if Mr Google knows

ooooh - lots of them (but not all dead), even with the very first Google hit (click here) ...

Kind Regards, John
Edit: in fact, looking briefly at more of the Google hits, it's clear that umpteen people have been reported as having killed by electric guitars over the years (including at least some others 'in baths')

 

[333rocky333]

In relation to this incredibly unusual event, people might be contemplating a fault which resulted in mains voltage reaching the instrument.

I seem to vaguely recall, in the dim and distant past, case(s) of a person, or persons, being electrocuted on-stage by a guitar. Did I dream that? Of course, that was very probably in the days of valve amplifiers being ubiquitous, with plenty of high voltages within them, quite apart from the 'mains voltage' supplying them - and, in such a case, as you say, even an RCD (on the mains supply) would not have offered any protection.

Kind Regards, John

Me too, im sure i recall people being electrocuted on stage, by guitars and more usually microphones,
i did see a set of drums catch fire at a local club once due to a dodgy mains lead, connection close by.

 

[ericmark]

While I don't know that you could blame his tube amplifier, Keith Relf of the Yardbirds was fatally electrocuted while playing at his home on 14 May 1976. The cause of death was blamed on an improper ground. Ace Frehley of KISS was nearly killed at a show in a similar fashion.

that is what I found with google, but as said 1976 was valve amplifiers the Brokenwood Mystery was using cars which show 21st century so likely FET powered and since a country singer quite a small one at that. And it claimed the amplifier was still on hours latter, had it been Miss Fisher set in the past could have seen high voltages at the guitar, but with a modern guitar would have thought no more than 12 volt at the guitar, it just seems the writers have not really done their research?

However when considering if a RCD would help, I must admit likely some isolation transformer, which would mean two things, the RCD would not trip, and also she would not get a shock.

As to if killed when no working RCD is fitted, I don't know what our HSE requires, but would have thought any place of work, and clearly a hotel is a place of work, where people are immersed in water, i.e. having a bath, there would need to be RCD protection, and even if found the owner not to blame, the police would be surely looking at why it did not trip?

 

[Tigercubrider]

It has been a common bodge when a guitar gets hum on stage to remove the earth.
Generally what killed a guitarist was the combination of a lifted earth, another electrical fault, then touching the mic stand.

 

[ericmark]

"flame-shooting chastity belt" is hardly a guitar. The list seems to include microphones, ear pieces, and to be frank I was surprised there were so many with what one would have expected were extra low voltage devices, clearly from reading the list I am wrong. Glad I am not a rock star.

 

[JohnW2]

... but with a modern guitar would have thought no more than 12 volt at the guitar, it just seems the writers have not really done their research?

That's obviously very possible - indeed, even if the writers had known it was 12V (or whatever), they might not have realised/understood that that was very unlikley to kill!. However, as I said, it's not totally impossible that, due to a fault, mains voltage appeared somewhere it shouldn't be, without tripping anything.

However when considering if a RCD would help, I must admit likely some isolation transformer, which would mean two things, the RCD would not trip, and also she would not get a shock.

An RCD obviously wouldn't help, but if there were high voltages within the amplifier, they would not necessarily be isolated from earth, so there might still be a shock.

As to if killed when no working RCD is fitted, I don't know what our HSE requires, but would have thought any place of work, and clearly a hotel is a place of work, where people are immersed in water, i.e. having a bath, there would need to be RCD protection...

Yes, one would imagine so.

... and even if found the owner not to blame, the police would be surely looking at why it did not trip?

As I said, even if it did trip, that is not a guarantee that the victim wouldn't die. The police's interest would presumably be limited to satisfying themselves that the incident was not the result of any criminal act (i.e. negligence - or even homicide) and if it merely transpired that an RCD had 'failed', I doubt that they would be interested in investigating the reason.

Kind Regards, John

 

[plugwash]

Just finished watching a Brokenwood Mystery on UK Drama, where the country singer was killed by putting the guitar in the bath with her, but raises a few questions.
1) Is the enough power or voltage in a electric guitar to kill anyone?

Depends what amplifier it is plugged into.

AIUI at least in the USA (no idea about elsewhere) there exit (very old) guitar amplifiers that directly use half-wave rectified mains and so have the signal ground connected to mains neutral. Combine those with a polarity reversal and things could get intersting.