Calling all Sparks...

[Jaymack]

All,
My wife was chatting to her friend yesterday, whose son recently jammed his finger into a bulbless table lamp and got a shock.

The son would get a shock at the tip of his finger only; (unless he had another earth path through hand or foot etc.), this would probably cause a burn and some shock pain but not fatal; unless the son had a physical defect.

An RCD would only operate under these conditions if there was a path to earth at the lampholder, i.e. a metal type, RCD's don't operate on L - N faults.

Regards

 

[breezer]

Holmslaw's explanation was very enlightening. An hour to unplug all the appliances and bulbs @ 1 hour. I firmly believe I could do my 4-bed detached house in less than 15 mins.

Jimbo, i am not quoting, so i dont care, BUT you have overlooked the obvious.

yes you may be able to take all the lamps out in 15 mins, but this is your house, so i should expect that you do know where all the lamps are. Anyone else will have to look for them and unplug all apliances, again something i should hope you know where they are.

I assume that anyone quoting is not 7 feet tall, so as such they will need a pair of steps to reach said light fittings, this will take a few more mins / light to move as they will not want to damage anything en route.

yours is also a good reason why i wrote

View media item 6967

 

[flameport]

An hour to unplug all the appliances and bulbs @ 1 hour. I firmly believe I could do my 4-bed detached house in less than 15 mins.

In your own perfect house which was built yesterday, that might be possible, as you know where everything is. In this same house, the testing and inspection would only take half an hour, since everything would be 100% in the correct place, installed correctly and properly labelled, and there would be a comprehensive set of test documents and wiring diagrams from when the wiring was installed.

In reality, there is no way it could be 15 minutes. Testing will take several hours, and repairs even longer.
This is because of such things as the hidden TV amp in the loft, bathroom extractor fans with no isolators, 12V downlighters with the transformers screwed to the joists in the inacesssible ceiling void, garages and lofts stuffed with 30 years worth of junk, the connection for the gas hob ignition being on the floor at the back of a cupboard, the metal light switches where fools chopped off the earth wires, socket outlets behind radiators, kitchen appliances wired directly to flex outlets, and so on. This list could run to several pages.

It's all very well saying that "we do have to make a living you know", but if you charge £500 a day, .

500 per day for one person is not realistic, and if this is the total amount for the CU change, at least 100 of that would be for parts.

350 would be a reasonable price for a straightforward change of a 4 way Wylex board. It is still a full day to do.
Problem is, you have already stated that your house has 12 circuits somehow crammed into a 6 way board.

But even at £300 per day - a 40% drop - you're still clearing well over £45k per year after tax (but before expenses). .

Assuming of course, that 100% of every working day is actually spent working, so no time at all for quotes, driving to various jobs, waiting for people who are not in/haven't bothered to get up yet, purchasing supplies, completing paperwork, taking cheques to the bank and everything else. Not to mention those pesky 'expenses'.

The final statement about 6 hours being rounded up to a day is a corker! I work a 7.5 hour day and that equates to a 25% surcharge for no reason.

This is not about 'rounding up'. A price for a day is the same, regardless of it being 6 hours, 8 hours or 10 hours. Taking off 25% just because the job took slightly less time isn't going to happen - that money would just be lost, as there is no way to magically invent another paying job for the last hour of the day.

As for costs, nothing on RFs list is a 'one off cost', and operating costs for a year (even for one person and one van) will be far more than you imagine (hint - the total will probably be a 5 figure one). Try actually putting a price to some of the items on that list.

Electrical work is far more than 'It's only connecting the tails and the existing wiring'. Unfortunately, as most of it can't be seen afterwards, many people have completely unrealistic expectations of price.

 

[ceraunic_level]

What is wrong with an electrician earning a decent wage. Its a skilled job that takes years to become competent.

You are paying for something that will sit there providing a safe supply of power to your home for decades. So spread over the life of the installation the cost may not seem so high.

Since the electrician is taking responsibility for every circuit in the house when changing your CU, the responsible electrician will take his time, and do a thorough job.
Piece of mind is a wonderful thing. For you and the electrician.

 

[hairyben]

Holmslaw's first response to my OP quoted a minimum of £500 - so presumably that would be a straightforward job. And based on Holmslaw's time breakdown, I as the customer end up paying £100 per hour!! So even with all the certs and tools etc., it still seems like a pretty lucrative line of work to me.

not as good as running a TV shop.

I bought a telly this year that cost £1150, yet it only took 5 minutes in the shop!

That means the guy in the TV shop must be earning £1150 every 5 minutes, which is £13,800 per hour!

 

[luminaire]

No doubt if it was a gas man calling to replace your boiler you'd happily pay £2000-£3000 without a quibble!

 

[2scoops0406]

Well, I suppose, get a few quotes, you don't have to accept them. Supply and demand, if no-one will pay £1000 for a CU change, then you can bet your bottom dollar, it won't be quoted at that for long. Failing that become mates with a spark, worked for me!

 

[2scoops0406]

No doubt if it was a gas man calling to replace your boiler you'd happily pay £2000-£3000 without a quibble!

I wouldn't no.

 

[hairyben]

[
I then need to have the following, which needs to be bought and paid for:

A vehicle to get to your house
Fuel for the vehicle
Tax for the vehicle
Insurance for the vehicle
A drive to the wholesalers to get the parts for your job
A drill and drill bits
A circular saw
An extention lead
A 110V transformer
A hand lamp
Gloves, goggles and a dust mask
A whole range of hand tools running into thousands of pounds
Work trousers and overalls
Up to date qualifications
A multi function installation tester
A current calibration certificate for my test kit
Professional body membership
Annual renewal fees for my professional body membership
Professional indemnity insurance
Public liability insurance
Notification fees to the LABC
Accountant fees
Dust sheets
Vaccuum cleaner

I sat down and did some figures once, a fully equipped electrician can easily spend 10-12 fat ones a year just to provide the service.

Thats over £200/week, every week, that has to be earnt before we start making any wages

The training to safely and competently use my tester
Time to visit your house to see the job
Time sat at home whilst compiling and writing out your quote
Time sat at home whilst completing your certificate
Time sat at home whilst notifing the LABC of your job
Time sat at home whilst writing out your invoice
An envolope and stamp to send your invoice to you.

This I'd classify separately as downtime, inc callbacks to people who won't listen to simple instructions or have impossible expectations and expect you to magic yourself back there on their whim as some kind of inclusive service, guarantee work, time spent chasing parts, time spent returning parts when the fools in the wholesaler give you the wrong bits,

I figure on 20% downtime, ie for every 4 days worked 1 will be spent doing non-chargeable work, so you only "take" 80% of whatever your rate is.

I expect I've missed some stuff off my list there

The list is endless.

and then you still need to figure in sickness/holiday, worth maybe 10% of a rate, private medical insurance (you can't rely on the NHS when you can't afford downtime)

So now you have:

Mr electrician charges, for example, £200/day thats a "nice amount" to earn, ja?

-20% downtime = £160/day

-10% holiday sickness = £144/day

£200/week costs = £104/day

My flatmates earn more working 9-5 one in recruitment, one as a PA, and one earns a bit less but he's training to be a FA in a very good outfit and will demolish all of us.

 

[CortinaV8]

My heart bleeds, the joys of being your own boss.

Some of the comments are pretty laughable, I can just imagine a builder turning up at yours house.

"Errrr, I dont have a hammer, as I am doing this job for you, you will have to purchase one for me"

 

[2scoops0406]

My heart bleeds, the joys of being your own boss.

Some of the comments are pretty laughable, I can just imagine a builder turning up at yours house.

"Errrr, I dont have a hammer, as I am doing this job for you, you will have to purchase one for me"

Had a landscape gardener turn up, and borrow my tools, yes he was a bit laughable, and got sacked a couple of days into the job.

 

[Jimbo]

500 per day for one person is not realistic

That was my only reason for querying. I don't doubt that it's a skilled job with lots of overheads and I don't mean to belittle it. I just was trying to understand the WAG quote I was given, in my own antagonistic way

Problem is, you have already stated that your house has 12 circuits somehow crammed into a 6 way board.

I didn't mean to imply that, I was simply hazarding a guess at the maximum number of likely circuits in an average 4 bed house. My house has six fuses, six circuits.

Assuming of course, that 100% of every working day is actually spent working, so no time at all for quotes, driving to various jobs, waiting for people who are not in/haven't bothered to get up yet, purchasing supplies, completing paperwork, taking cheques to the bank and everything else. Not to mention those pesky 'expenses'.

Fair enough!

This is not about 'rounding up'. A price for a day is the same, regardless of it being 6 hours, 8 hours or 10 hours. Taking off 25% just because the job took slightly less time isn't going to happen - that money would just be lost, as there is no way to magically invent another paying job for the last hour of the day.

I appreciate that - my problem is, why should your customer pay for, say, 8 hours work when you're only doing 6? (I'm not for one minute saying that I wouldn't do the same, but 25%+ is a hell of a surcharge!

As for costs, nothing on RFs list is a 'one off cost'

Apart from: the van; power and hand tools; clothing; test equipment; and a couple of other things. You might need to replace them every few years, but they don't constitute regular outgoings.

Electrical work is far more than 'It's only connecting the tails and the existing wiring'.

Yes, I understand that now - this thread has been very useful. I have a better appreciation of the training and ongoing costs associated with the job, and I also have an understanding of the collateral costs associated with each job that the customer has to pay, but which aren't actually incurred on the job itself.

Thanks for all your responses, and apologies for any offence I may have caused.

 

[2scoops0406]

Holmslaw's first response to my OP quoted a minimum of £500 - so presumably that would be a straightforward job. And based on Holmslaw's time breakdown, I as the customer end up paying £100 per hour!! So even with all the certs and tools etc., it still seems like a pretty lucrative line of work to me.

not as good as running a TV shop.

I bought a telly this year that cost £1150, yet it only took 5 minutes in the shop!

That means the guy in the TV shop must be earning £1150 every 5 minutes, which is £13,800 per hour!

Good analogy I guess the suppliers don't charge for their produce

 

[bongos]

Failing that become mates with a spark, worked for me!

Worked for me too

 

[Click-Sure]

I just decided to become one.

Easier than making and maintaining a friend!