commercial shop electrics

[Steve]

OK, I have worked in several small shops whilst training to be a manager (all owned by the same company, wont say which here!), and all have been recently refurbished (2-4 years ago). What surprises me about these shops though, is that none of the circuits are RCD protected. Not a single RCD to be seen anywhere within the installations. What are the regs concerning this?

Customers, as well as staff, can touch the metal bodies of the dairy chillers, metal electronic shutters, the photocopier, lights in the magazine racks. And in some of these shops, the chillers are in a shocking state, very old (10-15 years old), with massive starting currents, and i wouldnt be surprised if they were dumping huge amounts of current to earth.

Also, in the shop i'm at now, the shopfloor lights are controlled by a timer (so i've been told, and there are no light switches for the shopfloor anywhere). The only contactors i can see are labelled "beer/pop chillers" and "outside lights", And there are 2 timers to match, all attached to the sides of the DB. The shop floor lights take up 4 circuits on the DB, all on a same phase. What are the chances these are actually connected to the outside light contactor? Is this even possible with 4 circuits on a single contactor? Might try and get some pics so you can see what im on about here!

By the front door, there is a keyswitch under a break glass point for the fire alarm, connected by conduit to the ceiling. Any suggestions what this is for? Nobody knows!

All comments welcomed! Im just curious about this sort of thing. If the management thing doesnt work out, ill be training as a spark!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Not a single RCD to be seen anywhere within the installations. What are the regs concerning this?

Not required except for TT installations and some thins in bathrooms. Advised for sockets likely to supply portable equipment outside the equipotential zone.

Customers, as well as staff, can touch the metal bodies of the dairy chillers, metal electronic shutters, the photocopier, lights in the magazine racks.

So?

i wouldnt be surprised if they were dumping huge amounts of current to earth.

A good reason not to use RCDs then...

By the front door, there is a keyswitch under a break glass point for the fire alarm, connected by conduit to the ceiling. Any suggestions what this is for? Nobody knows!

Fire alarm tests? You do do those, regularly, I trust? And log them? If so, how do you trigger the alarm? AFAIK, if you're the manager there you are responsible.

 

[breezer]

the switch by the front door may also be for testing emergency lights.

If you are that concerned get an electricain in to check and lable everything

 

[Big_Spark]

Crafty, why worry about something you have no knowledge of.

Have you ever recieved an electric shock at work..probably not, anyone you know? Thought not.

Refurbs of commercial premises are done on a budget, and believe me when i say there is precious little money in that budget.

There are good reasons not to have light switches, it stops idiots playing with them, and as many timeclocks can switch up to 20A inductive loads, there may be no need for a contactor for the shop front lighting, but even if this is not the case, it could be a lighting contacted mounted internally of the DB.

 

[Lectrician]

Not much to add.

Expect the key switch to be em light test.

A four pole contactor can switch four lighting circuits (from 4 mcb's). 2 contactors could switch 8 etc.

An entire DB can be switched by a larger contactor.

Umm....is the installation inspected and tested every 5yr

 

[Steve]

it hasnt been there 5 years lol, but it has a sticker on it for the periodic inspections.

there are 2 keyswitches next to the DB that are labelled for the EM lights.

never tested the fire alarm, i know we should, but we have so many other things to do. I dont think even the manager knows how to test the fire alarm. (thats not me by the way, im a trainee manager )

I figured the keyswitch next to the front door could be for the shop floor lights, as this is where we enter and exit when opening and closing. But i am not willing to try this, as it is connected by conduit to the break glass point.

I was just a bit concerned that if a customer were to touch the live case of one of these chillers (or any other electrics in the shop), they could get massive compo if they are injured, but with an RCD there would be no chance of this. Granted, these things do leak quite a bit to earth, but they are regularly serviced (yearly), and if they were on a 500mA RCD, nuisance tripping wouldn't be a problem as far as i can see. Better than nothing, and it would trip if somebody touched a live part.

There are good reasons not to have light switches, it stops idiots playing with them

there is a lightswitch on the shop floor, that controls the cellar lights. No lightswitch in the cellar. Work that out. I sometimes wonder if the sparks were on drugs when they did that.

 

[breezer]

I was just a bit concerned that if a customer were to touch the live case of one of these chillers (or any other electrics in the shop), they could get massive compo if they are injured,

not your problem, carry on training

 

[ban-all-sheds]

it is connected by conduit to the break glass point.

Which is what makes me think it's for a fire alarm test...

I was just a bit concerned that if a customer were to touch the live case of one of these chillers

Why should the case become live?

these things do leak quite a bit to earth,

How do you know?

but they are regularly serviced (yearly),

So why are you so worried about them?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

not your problem, carry on training

No longer true - if he believes that a breach of Health and Safety regulations has occurred he is legally bound to report it to the responsible person....

 

[Big_Spark]

If the Key switch is connected to the break glass, and you have shop front electrically operated shutters, this could be an emergency over-ride.

 

[Steve]

are there no regs/laws whatsoever concerning RCDs or extra protection in areas that members of the public can enter freely and freely touch electrical appliances?

 

[andy]

are there no regs/laws whatsoever concerning RCDs or extra protection in areas that members of the public can enter freely and freely touch electrical appliances?

they are earthed so that if there is a fault, the current will go thru th case to earth, blowing the fuse/mcb.

an RCD does not make it impossible tog et a shock, but if it does happen, the RCD should trip before any real damage is done

 

[plugwash]

If the Key switch is connected to the break glass, and you have shop front electrically operated shutters, this could be an emergency over-ride.

and if its an emergency override shouldn't someone know about it?!

 

[Big_Spark]

Clearly not, Crafty says he is a trainee manager, and as such should be fully versed in Fire evacuation and Alarm Testing procedures as required by several acts of parliament, yet it would appear that no-one in that establishment has any such knowledge or training.

What a bloody Joke.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

And what's worse, from his point of view, he has shown that he is fully aware of the fact that this knowledge is lacking. Should anything unfortunate happen, and it came out in court that he knew that safety precautions were not being taken, or the operation of safety or alarm features was not understood or tested, and he did nothing about it, then manager or not, he's in deep doo-doo.