Connecting a water butt

[bopcol]

I want to place my water butt about 10 feet away from the down pipe as in between I have a garage door. I have a diverter and wonder if it would work if I connected the butt pipe in such a manner so that from the diverter I ran it vertically down to the ground than ran it horizontally for 10 feet then turned it vertically upwards to then enter into the butt. I understand that the diverter and the hole in the butt must be at the same level. My idea is that it would be at the same level but for the fact that I am diverting the connecting pipe in tortuous way.

Advice would be gratefully accepted.

 

[stem]

According to the laws of physics as water always finds its own level what you propose would work in theory, assuming the positioning of the inlet to the water butt and the diverter are positioned correctly in relation to each other, however, I see two problems.

1. The flow of water will be reduced due to the resistance of the route, so I suspect that it will not collect rainwater as quickly as a shorter 'non looped' pipe.

2. More worryingly, along with the water comes quite a bit of sediment, grit, sludge etc., that is washed off the roof, normally it is flushed down the pipe to fall into the butt. The tap is usually a few inches above the base to allow it to settle there without causing a problem. With your solution, I think the sediment will settle in the pipe as there will not be enough force to push it up and into the butt, thus blocking the pipe quite quickly.

 

[bopcol]

Thanks Stem. I had completely overlooked the sediment, but I suppose a filter diverter at £70 might do the trick. I'm not too concerned about the speed of rain collection, but thanks anyway for pointing that out.

I'll have to weigh up whether I want to spend money on piping and a filter against abandoning the idea altogether and place the butt in an unsightly position.

I'm very appreciative of your swift and erudite response.

 

[imamartian]

i have a similar situation, but i have a downpipe from a 3m x 4m conservatory to a water butt, and then i've joined a second butt, about 5 metres away, although at ground level (or the tap level at least).

Firstly we obviously don't use the tap, but dunk in watering cans.

Secondly i find that even after heavy use, a nights rain in this country on a small area can soon fill them up again.

But the sediment thing is the big concern.... although to be honest the joining pipe hasn't been the problem up to now, it's been the diverter which gets blocked - although easy to sort out.

And if the joining pipe gets blocked, it's quite easy to clean out (detach one end, and let the water butt water clear it out, or even attach a hose?)..

 

[stem]

Imamartian, your situation is completely different as the sediment will drop out of suspension in the first butt and fall to the bottom, so little will get transferred down the pipe to the second butt.

Also after rain, your first butt will fill up quickly as I assume from your post that it is connected in the usual way via a short pipe from the diverter, so you don't have the long pipe with loop to create the resistance situation. The 5 metre transfer to the second butt is assisted with the build up of pressure of the water as the first fills. (A 250 litre butt will contain a quarter of a tonne of water when full)

Also there is no mention of a 'loop' in the pipe as proposed by bopcol, where the water drops and is then forced to rise again. This is the issue, as the sediment would settle in the bottom.

Although you do get sediment build up in your diverter (and I imagine a fair bit still makes it through to the first butt which it won't with bopcol's proposal where it will all sit in the loop), you say that your roof is a conservatory, so being glass it won't trap as much debris and dust and will not have particles that wear off as some other roof surfaces may do. In addition, 3 x 4 metres is quite a small roof and would not collect as much debris as a larger area would. bopcol doesn't mention the size or construction of his roof, but it could quite easily produce more sediment than yours.

 

[wrathkeg]

if you do resort to having the water butt where it can be seen, you might consider having a smaller, and arguably smarter water butt in full view, with a siphon (just a hose pipe would do) to a larger (and maybe more unsightly) water butt elsewhere. the water will travel between them for you (assuming the levels are right). probably going to be much cheaper and easier than pipework, filters etc.

(edit --- oops: that's more or less what imamartian suggested)

 

[bopcol]

Thanks wrathkeg. There is only one place where it sits nicely and is unobtrusive and that's where I mention in my post - the other side of the garage door where there is no down pipe. So I think I'll have to put up with it in an unsightly position. I'll just not allow friends and family into the garden. It'll just be the wife and I.

Thanks to every one for their valuable posts.

 

[ladylola]

Perhaps I'm missing something here but wouldn't it be possible to run your pipe above the garage door? If it's the garage door you drive through I'd be concerned about damage to the pipe.

 

[bopcol]

Thanks ladylola

The garage door is an ordinary door at the back of the garage that leads to the garden. The down pipe is one side of the door and I was planning to place the butt on the other side of the door. The problem is that the rain converter and the hose entering the butt must be at the same height. If I install a drain converter in the down pipe above the garage door I have to raise the butt to the same height, which is not practical. I thought I'd solved the problem by running the pipe from the drain converter downwards to ground level then running it horizontally and then vertically up to the butt. However as you can see from stems postings, the butt might well fill but the pipes from the converter to the butt will become blocked with sludge.

Just to answer another question the down pipe comes from the guttering of a 4 bedroomed detached house and the existing 110 litre butt gets filled with a large amount of sludge. I was hoping to install a 210 litre butt but the size of it is really unsightly.

So thanks, but it doesn't solve my problem and I think that stem has got it spot on.

 

[imamartian]

Imamartian, your situation is completely different as the sediment will drop out of suspension in the first butt and fall to the bottom, so little will get transferred down the pipe to the second butt.

Also after rain, your first butt will fill up quickly as I assume from your post that it is connected in the usual way via a short pipe from the diverter, so you don't have the long pipe with loop to create the resistance situation. The 5 metre transfer to the second butt is assisted with the build up of pressure of the water as the first fills. (A 250 litre butt will contain a quarter of a tonne of water when full)

Also there is no mention of a 'loop' in the pipe as proposed by bopcol, where the water drops and is then forced to rise again. This is the issue, as the sediment would settle in the bottom.

Although you do get sediment build up in your diverter (and I imagine a fair bit still makes it through to the first butt which it won't with bopcol's proposal where it will all sit in the loop), you say that your roof is a conservatory, so being glass it won't trap as much debris and dust and will not have particles that wear off as some other roof surfaces may do. In addition, 3 x 4 metres is quite a small roof and would not collect as much debris as a larger area would. bopcol doesn't mention the size or construction of his roof, but it could quite easily produce more sediment than yours.

Thanks Stem. I do get a lot of debris as we live quite close to a wood, and the nearest tree is a pesky sycamore... plus the moss build up etc.. The conservatory roof is plastic too.

However, what you say about the physics makes a lot of sense... thanks for your reply.

 

[stem]

So I think I'll have to put up with it in an unsightly position. I'll just not allow friends and family into the garden. It'll just be the wife and I.

You can get decorative water butts, urns, barrels, roman columns, wall mounted, some with built in planters etc., etc., click here for some examples. Rainwater won't be the only thing you'll be collecting though. The prices will make your eyes water.

As a wildcard, do you use the garage? erm I mean to put a car in. Would you, could you consider putting the butt in the garage, with a bit of DIY plumbing to position the tap outside and a hole for the pipe to the diverter.

Or how about this configuration? Position the diverter up above the door and to stop the butt overflowing take a pipe back to the downspout at low level. The reason the diverter has to be at the same level normally is to control the level of the butt and stop it over filling, the overflow pipe will get around this.

Untitled

• stem
• 24 May 2012
• 1

 

[bopcol]

That looks brilliant stem, that's exactly my layout with of course space under the door to run a pipe. I think I could manage that, the only the tricky bit would be to drill a hole in the down pipe in which to connect the overflow pipe without making a mess of the down pipe and also ensuring that the connection is water tight. But it's not beyond my wit (I hope)

I suppose I'm one of the few who actually uses the garage for the car.

Funnily enough the wife suggested decorating the butt.

I shall assemble all the bits and have a go.

I am so grateful for the time and effort you have put into this project for me.

 

[stem]

If you do try it, I would suggest that you slope the filling pipe slightly downwards towards the butt. This will help ensure any sediment is washed through into the barrel, and a better flow will maximise your water harvest.

You could fit another diverter for the return connection with the inside trap part removed.

Personally I wouldn't mount the overflow right at the very top of the butt as a few inches of pressure above it will assist the discharge. In could even be lower than the inlet. This is because water will have to flow out as fast as it comes in to prevent an overflow. (This is the opposite to what I have shown in the sketch)

 

[bopcol]

Thanks again. I appreciate that your sketch is diagrammatic and will take your advice. My butt has two per-drilled holes at the same height just in case I wanted to connect to another butt, so I should think that if the inlet and outlet holes are the same height it should be OK.

 

[stem]

As the holes are already there I would definitely use them too. I'm sure they will be fine, but if not you can always move one later if the butt does overfill.

If your downspout has a square section, you could fit something like one of these. If you can't access the back to get the lock ring on you can get a brass version which would enable you to drill a hole in the downspout and use the brass fitting to cut a thread in plastic downspout. Support the pipe well to prevent strain and seal with some suitable sealing compound. You may even be able to do this with a circular downsport. Just an idea.

Glad to be of assistance. I've had loads of help from others on here, so it's nice to reciprocate.