Decoding consumer unfriendly certification labels on frames

[fourtytwo]

Sorry for the long title but I am only used to the friendly BFRC/CERTASS labels, now I find someone has apparently allowed a free for all and we get weird unheard of companies sooo can anybody decode the label in the picture and tell me it's rating in terms of A++ to F please ?

Label says CENSOLUTIONS and a number CMS 3348WDB (removed due to copyright concerns)

 

[ronniecabers]

Theres no picture attached ... BUT CENsolutions is a ' Testing House ' and the number attached is the ' License ' . Assuming tis is on the frame then CENsolutions will have tested the frame ( and will continue to do so at periodoc intervals )so it meets certain criteria and performance levels , the other number is then licence that shows that the company have a licence to make it. CENsolutions are a big testig house that test Sealed units as wellas Frames... fun fact did you know a sealed unit manufacturere has to have a licence to be able to produce sealed units and it has to be shown ( some times as a random number other times as numbers and letters identifying the manufacturer).
IF upvc frame it is very unlikely to be anything under a C value , as thats the industry bottom level these days

 

[fourtytwo]

Thank you very much for the reply, I took the picture down as it also identified the supplier company who don't seem to take kindly to such questions. There QA manager has now told me the label is only to show the units are tested to BS whatever and as I suspected does not guarantee the thermal performance and they will now send me the correct BFRC paperwork, maybe next week, lets see

 

[ronniecabers]

Glad the manufacturer are sending correct paperwork. I am unsure as to why they would be worried about being identified and such questions , to me , raises red flags ... if they provide the correct paperwork where is the issue, oh well lol

 

[fourtytwo]

Absolutely I agree about the red flags, I was surprised I have not encountered this problem before and I will post on here to let peeps know what happens. DG is a bit of a nightmare, last time it was the nasty surprise introduction of trickle vents now it seems to be the de-regulation of pucka thermal certification, life for the consumer is going from bad to worse IMOP. I might add that neither FENSA nor the GGF insist there members provide this information as far as I could find so they are as much at fault as anyone.

 

[ronniecabers]

Tbf the the average installer was only given about 6 months notice about trickle vents , some even less. I'm not aware that the thermal certification labels have been ' de regulated '. I've seen nothing in the trade mags to imply any changes

 

[fourtytwo]

So I understand, some quango's seem to have far to much power for an unelected bunch of halfwits!
What I mean about de-regulated is historically I was only aware of BFRC & CERTASS but now we seem to have uncle tom cobbly and all claiming to be test houses with no public access to there records such as the outfit who are on the labels of these windows that I and I suspect 99% of consumers have never heard of. Certification labels with no public access is completely meaningless and misleading and should be banned.
Grrrrrr

 

[ronniecabers]

CEN solutions have been around for years... I first encountered them for sealed unit testing back in 2002 when Fensa first came to the forefront as the first ' Competent Persons Scheme ' due to building regulation changes and the introduction of energy efficient products in the main stream Industry. Most people have heard of Fensa , the BRFC was always there too but not as recognisable. Certass came along as Competition to Fensa and honestly shook up the Competent Persons Schemes...a lot of companies appreciating Fensa no longer had what was felt as a Monopoly. Certass was also cheaper to join and for inspections. Other companies have since joined , such as Assure but all of them are still subject to checks by central government. Fensa , Certass and Assure are not testing houses , they are purely competent persons schemes , schemes where registered installers can ' self register ' with a percentage of checks a year. The BFRc gives the rainbow a++-g ratings but these aren't the only route to gain ing compliance, providing an equivalent u value is achieved then the windows will comply tonthe same energy rating as given by BFRc ratings ( except you can't call it an a rated window for example ) . Testing Houses, such as Cen Solutions play no real role in energy ratings ... they are purely there to test the sealed units or frames they are testing comply to what they are claiming to be... and will do the job advertised ...eg sealed units are tested in varying conditions to see if they will withstand the warranty provided. The licence number the manufacturer is given is effectively saying the item is tested to ' do what it says on the tin ' . 99% of users have no need to know about companies such as Censolutions , or even a desire to know I suspect.

Sorry a long winded post but hopefully explains a little bit about BFRc, Certass and Censolutions ( who all play different parts within the window industry)

 

[Notch7]

So I understand, some quango's seem to have far to much power for an unelected bunch of halfwits!
What I mean about de-regulated is historically I was only aware of BFRC & CERTASS but now we seem to have uncle tom cobbly and all claiming to be test houses with no public access to there records such as the outfit who are on the labels of these windows that I and I suspect 99% of consumers have never heard of. Certification labels with no public access is completely meaningless and misleading and should be banned.
Grrrrrr

As far as I know window manufacturers have to provide window energy ratings but they can do them in house using some software.

from memory I think we used Certass -but the calculations were rather generic.

I used to run a joinery company and I used a manufacturing programme called joinerysoft and that could calculate WER

Joinerysoft | U-Values

U-Values

www.joinerysoft.com

given that the biggest part of a windows thermal performance is the glass and thats easy to know you just specify what you want and the centre pane value is readily available, my guess is that performance will be pretty similar in each material type, eg timber, aly, upvc


I would say installation and attention to thermal bridging is likely to be a bigger factor than difference between manufacturers

If the installer doesnt go round and adjust the openers to achieve the correct draught seal compression, that could mean draughty windows


I reckon a householder spending say £10k on a house lad of windows might want to spend £250 on a thermal imaging camera and see for himself where all the leaks are

 

[ronniecabers]

Yes you can get similiar info when a job is registered on competent schemes such as Certass and even them technically you should also be member of the Thermal Ratings Register. You should find you have to provide information on your fram supplier and glass supplier ... usually the information from the testing houses ( such as Censolutions). Admittedly I have no idea how it works with Timber windows but this is certainly how it works with Upvc
As you say Notch a lot of the the thermal value is the huge glass content and I could go on to explain the differences but don't want to bore people lol. But in Upvc and Ali it also comes down to how many internal chambers, the type of rubber seals and the type of ' reinforcing ' ( if required ) and in Ali the type of thermal bridge used within the frame)hence Upvc and Ali framess are also tested by companies such as Censolitions, then , and only when the glass is combined with a frame do you get a Window Energy Rating. ( despite many claiming it , sealed units do not have an energy rating... they only have a u value and a g value). Wood is Completely different as it is a solid product right through, very much unlike pvc and Ali.
Again as you say and is said many times on this site , by a lot of long standing members, a window/door is only as good as its fitting... a well fitted C rated window will perform.much better than a poorly fitted A rated frame

 

[crank39]

.....a well fitted C rated window will perform.much better than a poorly fitted A rated frame.....

Never was there a truer word said

 

[fourtytwo]

Thank you everybody for your informative replies, I am beginning to understand where the different organizations fit.

Well I got an answer from Censolutions to the effect that they do not certify thermal performance as that is the job of such organizations as Bfrc (nice to hear it from the horses mouth as well).

Meanwhile the installer of the frames has admitted there factory is not affixing Bfrc labels to the frames as they should be and has kindly sent me a pdf file containing a sheet I can print myself, ALSO enclosed a copy of there Bfrc certificate for A rated windows that is of the basic variety with no U values. BUT I still have nothing to tie in my order with there A rating as neither the order nor Fensa documentation mention it. This particular supplier also has a Bfrc B rating using the same frames so obviously different glass and/or gas, am I being unreasonably fussy expecting them to prove they have fitted the correct glazed units ?

 

[ronniecabers]

I don't suppose you know the make up of the sealed unit.... something along g the lines of ' diamant 4/ 20 blk Swiss spacer / 4 planitherm with argon gas '. The only difference in the sealed unit between an A rated and B rated would be the use of a 'Low Iron ' glass such as Diamant. Basically low Iron glass will be optically clear u like normal glass..... ever seen a lot of glass stacked up? It looks green...that's the Iron content, take the iron out and it's optically clear and this allows more sunlight through ( this is known as the g value within the industry).

The fensa document want have ratings on them, well certainly Certass ones don't as there is no where to register that information when registering the installation.... I would suspect Fensa is the same

 

[fourtytwo]

I wish I did know the makeup of the unit and what it's filled with.......

But I will be having another installation from an apparently more trustworthy company who have offered full documentation up-front so it will be very interesting to compare there performance with my trusty laser thermometer this coming winter.

I had a salesman around last year from yet another company before the present installation and when we were discussing some french windows here of indeterminate parentage promptly produced a gadget about the size of a fag packet and used it to test the glass for low-E! I see such things for sale around £50-£60 so if I get desperate to know that's one route but it would not identify the gas (or lack of) filling.

Regarding Fensa & Bfrc you might be interested in this page Fensa I found myself but was also sent by the reticent DG company, sent me the page but did not offer to organize a new certificate!! I might try that tack once more if I can summon the will to deal with them again.

 

[ronniecabers]

The gadget you saw indeed a ' low e ' tester. Unless you want to pay out 100s for a ' spark tester 'you won't determine e if there is gas in there ... honestly I would pretty much guarantee it has low e glass and Argon gas ... that's the bare minimum for compliance, either of those missing and then it's a building regulation fail. Krypton gas is incredibly expensive hence very very few use it. Warm edge spacer bar is easy to spot , as it looks plastic lol ... low Iron glass is much harder to test for.
As goes the fensa/brfc , yes you are correct BUT that's only if they use BFRC ratings.... some sell purely on U Values, which providing they are within the values of BFRC A rated then the windows are considered to be A Rated equivalent...a lot of firms go down this route as it's cheaper.... you wouldn't actually believe how many other parties are trying to get money put of your average window installer before they've even fitted a wi dow , just to provide a slight competitive edge lol