Do I need a new boiler (move or replace)?

[SnakeyB]

Hi all

Hoping you can help me with probably not enough info...

I have a Worcester 28i Junior, which lives in the kitchen of my two-bedroom flat. The boiler was new in 2011. I've lived here since 2014 and never had it serviced but the previous owner must have done because the flat was rented out. It works just fine.

I had my gas meter moved last week (Cadent's decision, not mine), and I was talking to the guy who did it and he was saying he didn't understand why my boiler was in front of the kitchen window (it's mounted on a wall at right angles to the window, and sticks out about six inches across the window) when it would be better to have it inside the cupboard where the meter now is.

Now, I want to get my kitchen refurbished - one of the things I was waiting for was for the meter to be moved, so now I can get on with it - and I'd love the boiler to be hidden away in a cupboard, it would look so much neater. I'd assumed there must have been a reason not to put it there from the start, but apparently there's no reason why it can't be there!

He offered to come round one weekend and do it for me. So far, so good.

Then he said that I should probably get a new boiler as this one was old and would need replacing soon anyway and the labour cost for moving and replacing would be the same.

I appreciate that he was standing right next to the boiler, while you've just got me typing at you, but... is that likely to be true, that it's going to need replacing soon anyway? Or is there some other reason for him saying that (perhaps one that would benefit him but not me)? I've done a forum search and there seems to be mixed opinions on whether you can or can't move boilers without it making them more likely to break down.

Also, is this as simple as he's saying - I mean, do I need to get any sort of permission to move a boiler (building regulations or whatever?) and get certificates signed off and things, or can someone just come and do it? My flat is in a council block, but I am a leaseholder rather than a tenant. I'll need a straight flue rather than a right-angled one, but where it comes out of the wall outside it will look the same and be in the same place, it won't need a new hole or anything.

Is the answer different depending on whether I'm moving the old one or installing a new one?

And is there only one type of gas safe registration, so that I can be comfortable that since he was allowed to move my gas meter it's also OK to have him move my boiler/install a new one?

And finally... we haven't talked money yet, but what would you say the going rate would be for this? Very roughly. I'm in central London. He reckons it's a day's work. The distance it's going to be moved would be about two feet to the left and two feet backwards, and as a result it will be closer to the gas pipe and further away from the water supply/drains (if any of those things matter). Same height, presumably, since we'll be using the same flue hole.

Are there extra things that I should expect would be done as part of the work so I should make sure he does them? I'm reading things about power flushes and scale and corrosion inhibitors - are those relevant here? Are there things that would reasonably cost extra (but that it would be sensible for me to ask him to do while he's here), that I should budget for on top of whatever we agree? There is already a magnaclean filter, but God knows what that looks like inside since I've never emptied it or anything (wouldn't know where to start).

Thanks for reading!

 

[CBW]

Some photos/plan of existing layout and proposed would be a good start. If he’s from Cadent, he may have his own registration - check this out before anything.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Building regs- as long as whoever moves/installs it is Gas Safe registered they will notify the works to Building Control & you'll get a bit of paper through the post a few weeks later saying it's all good. A full time meter fitter wouldn't necessarily be Gas Safe registered (not a case of not having the skills, more a case of not having done the portfolio work etc to gain scheme admission). Permission- you should probably notify the freeholder, they may well get a copy of the Building Regs notice anyway so swerving that step might be a bad idea.
Things he ought to do- check the magnaclean anyway, put inhibitor in the system when he refills it. Modern system like yours shouldn't need powerflushing
New boiler? Not sure about that one, yours is only 9 years old BUT Worcesters are quite complex things so it might be wise while you're having the work done. Costs- (by the way you don't have to have another Worcester) minimum £500 for the labour, probably more since you're in that there London. If you can wait til the summer (stop laughing at the back there) you'll probably find offers to fit at relatively low prices (though if this bloke is working fulltime as a meter fitter then he may do you a good price anyway)

 

[muggles]

He's almost certainly not registered to install boilers. You need a CENWAT gas qualification for that. Most meter fitters will just have their MET1 meter fitting qualification. So in answer to your question, no being Gas Safe Registered does not give carte blanche to do all gas work - one must take individual qualifications for each type of appliance.

As to the condition of your boiler, you've clearly not been looking after it so it may well be up for replacement. If it had been serviced regularly I'd say keep it but they do not like to be neglected. It would be worth getting a through service done by someone who is experienced working with this model, and that will provide you with a good idea of its present condition

 

[SnakeyB]

Hi all - sorry for delay, I wanted to upload photos as requested by The Novice but had to work out how. I have a nasty feeling you might have to lie on your sides to see them properly but no idea how to turn them sorry.

First, here is where it is now, sticking out in front of the window. Also in this photo is where I want it to be. This is in the very corner of my flat. So you can see that there's a floor-to-ceiling square-ish chunk cut out of my kitchen space. I don't have access to whatever's behind there but I believe it to be vertical pipes.

You can see where the vent hose goes in to that void space, it then turns a sharp right and comes out next to the window (slightly further away than the minimum gap required between a vent outlet and an opening window). If I move the boiler to the cupboard, the vent hose will go in a straight line through that space to the outside wall - at least, that's what the guy said to me (presumably, although I didn't think about this at the time, there might be a pipe in the way meaning it won't be this easy?). Somebody's going to need to hack their way in there to re-route the central heating pipes and so on, but clearly that's been done before now in order to install the system in the first place and so mustn't be a massive problem.

Second, photo content similar to the above but a bit lower down so you can see the location of the gas meter in case this matters to anything.

The cupboard isn't as shallow as it looks. I got hold of the boiler manual online and measured it and there is plenty more than the minimum clearance above, below, sides and in front.

And third, is the cupboard underneath the current boiler location, so you can see the pipes and stuff.


Thanks all for your help so far. I can see it's not going to be as easy as I'd hoped, I'm going to need to ask people about what consents I need and ask this guy to show me proof that he's got the right registrations to do it and so on, then source a new boiler too by the sounds of it. Shame as I was hoping to just make a call and it'd be sorted within a week! Ideally even while he was still working on the other gas meters in the block, for easy visits beforehand to discuss it etc.

Any further thoughts or things I should consider? In particular I've been assuming that the only reason the boiler wasn't always located in the cupboard was because the tenants at the time wanted to keep it for larder storage... but if, now you've seen the photos, you think that there might be some reason other than preference, please shout!

 

[Mottie]

Here they are the right way up. OP, just use the upload file button below the reply panel and post them directly from your laptop/pc/tablet etc.

 

[fatplumber]

You would need a new flue and I’d like to know what’s behind it at the moment. If you are doing a major refurb then take the opportunity to change the boiler for one with better hot water delivery. That vintage Junior isn’t that too bad but I wouldn’t want to move it. Consider an Intergas or Atag, two very reliable boilers. The meter is very close so you could get one that puts 30-36kw into hot water. You’d get 16ltrs a minute as AppleScript 9 if you are lucky.

 

[dilalio]

One wonders what's the access like for flueing on the other side of the wall?

Photos?

 

[SnakeyB]

I'm sure this wasn't what you meant, but here is the flue outside. (Also there in the picture: scaffolding, a random bit of wood nailed to the wall which has always been there, and new gas pipes which are the brown/white vertical ones.)

(Thanks to Mottie for how to post photos! )

I used to be able to get in to the bottom part of the void space, but when they installed the meter they put some stuff round the new gas pipe so that the (wooden) "wall" is now fixed in place unless I want to risk pulling the gas pipe out (rest assured messing around with gas pipes is not on my list of things to do). So I can't take a photo now as it is not accessible without ripping out the side wall of the cupboard - in other words it can be done but I don't personally propose to do it - I have no tools and if the boiler move doesn't go ahead I don't really want my cupboard permanently opening on to pipes and the outside wall!

From memory behind it was a big vertical pipe, some smaller pipes (can't remember what direction they went in, and no idea whether they went all the way up) and a metric tonne of tiny little insulation beads. If it helps with the Random Unseen Pipe Identification Game, it's kitchens all the way up - I'm on the first floor of a ten-storey block - and my neighbour's kitchen backs on to mine so it's kitchens on both sides.

So you can probably see from the photos, at the moment the flue goes in to that space and, presumably, turns a right angle where we can't see it. So there's enough space around/between whatever's behind there for it to do that... does that mean it could also be flued in a straight line from the cupboard, or is this something I would specifically need to confirm to avoid an "oh, $%*&!" moment? Outlet hole is, I think, not moveable because the outside of the building is listed and they are funny about you knocking new holes through. So I suppose there's a chance it might be "can't get there from here"?

 

[fatplumber]

As I thought, there is a service duct behind the boiler. You need to get someone better experienced to take a look.

 

[Hugh Jaleak]

My money is on the communal soil pipe and water supplies being behind that boxing in, unlikely you'll be able to route a flue through there as well. Only option, (if possible), would be to put a couple of bends in the flue to get it around the boxing in and use the existing hole in the wall.

 

[gasbanni]

Well it looks like the flue goes in to the boxing in then there's an elbow to the right and it exits where it does.

So it looks like it can be moved easily enough.

Ask for his gas safe no you can then check on gas safest website to see if he's qualified to fit boilers.
As for a new boiler it's up to you !