Driveways and drainage

[Tayjen]

Hi all,

My wife and I decided to add a driveway with dropped kerb to our house this year, as well as a pathway and patio.

We were quoted by a builder on Sat, we found the price agreeable and he surprised up by starting yesterday - bank hol monday, by digging up the front hedge and garden. I woke up to the sound of a digger ripping down our hedge, although he had originally said he had a 14 day cooling off period and couldn't start for 2-3 weeks. He said he would take care of the all council-side permission but obviously that could not be the case as he started so quickly.

As if this wasn't concerning enough, we asked for tarmac and the drive slopes towards the house so drainage is obviously needed. The builder seemed to thinks things would be fine to use the storm drain but reading up on it last night it seems like we need planning permission for this, or otherwise use a soakaway, which may or may not be possible due to the small garden we have.

I have already emailed the council with my concerns and also a local architect. Things are starting to smell funny and intend to cancel the job if its going to be unsafe or illegal, or at least put it on hold until the correct course has been officially cleared.

Any advice?

 

[Footsoldier888]

I would trust your gut feeling.

Have you signed a contract? Or paid in advance?

 

[CambridgeBrummie]

If your driveway exceeds 5sq.m and is in tarmac (non-permeable), you will need planning permission. The rules changed in October 2008.

From 1 October 2008 the permitted development rights that allow householders to pave their front garden with hardstanding without planning permission have changed in order to reduce the impact of this type of development on flooding and on pollution of watercourses. You will not need planning permission if a new or replacement driveway of any size uses permeable (or porous) surfacing, such as gravel, permeable concrete block paving or porous asphalt, or if the rainwater is directed to a lawn or border to drain naturally. If the surface to be covered is more than five square metres planning permission will be needed for laying traditional, impermeable driveways that do not provide for the water to run to a permeable area.​

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...achment_data/file/7728/pavingfrontgardens.pdf

You could use a soakaway (if the ground conditions allow this - depends on your subsoil). If you do the soakaway needs to be more than 5m away from the house.

Regards

 

[Tayjen]

@Footsoldier888

Thanks. I would never pay in advance, but my signature on the quote means it is a contract. I have some legal experience so I know that I will need to pay for work already done unless I can prove that I was pressured into it. I am not unhappy with the work so far, I just want the remainder to be above board and safe.

We did notice that the quote said 'I understand my rights under the 14 day cooling off period and waiver them', which I did not tick but he ticked it anyway before leaving the quote, which I am aware could constitute fraud. Whatever that tick-box meant, it cannot remove statutory rights.

 

[Tayjen]

You will not need planning permission if a new or replacement driveway of any size uses permeable (or porous) surfacing, such as gravel, permeable concrete block paving or porous asphalt, or if the rainwater is directed to a lawn or border to drain naturally.

Thanks, I am aware of this. The debate at the moment is how to pave the driveway in such a way that we can use a soakaway, possibly via a channel to the corner of the garden, as the flowerbed at the bottom of the slope is directly outside the house underneath the front window and therefore not 5m away as some regulations suggest.

If I do need to get planning permission, am I right in saying I can get this retrospectively as long as the work is to the required standard?

 

[Nakajo]

Where cancellation rights apply, the consumer cannot waive those rights. However, if the consumer later cancels, the trader may deduct money for goods used, or recoup the cost of any services delivered until the point of cancellation.

If the box was ticked by the trader after the consumer signed, then I suspecc that this is an act of fraud

 

[Footsoldier888]

You could perhaps explain to the builder it needs planning permission and regret work can't continue until you get the PP. Then pay for the work done so far.

If you want to try the retrospective route the drainage would need a notification to Building Control I think, soakaway positions need approval I believe.

 

[Tayjen]

Where cancellation rights apply, the consumer cannot waive those rights. However, if the consumer later cancels, the trader may deduct money for goods used, or recoup the cost of any services delivered until the point of cancellation.

If the box was ticked by the trader after the consumer signed, then I suspecc that this is an act of fraud

You could perhaps explain to the builder it needs planning permission and regret work can't continue until you get the PP. Then pay for the work done so far.

If you want to try the retrospective route the drainage would need a notification to Building Control I think, soakaway positions need approval I believe.

Thanks both.

I have prepared an email (and just left a voicemail explaining the same in less detail) explaining the situation and offering him the chance to delay the driveway until proper plans are ready or advising he has the chance to cancel fully at this point, recouping for the clearance work done already but putting all liability on him for any concrete and tarmac he puts in after today. I also quoted the 100% customer satisfaction guarantee and he has on his website for good measure. Feeling slightly more comfortable now.

 

[^woody^]

but my signature on the quote means it is a contract. I have some legal experience

Your experience does not seem to be in contract law.

What are those three things again?

 

[Tayjen]

but my signature on the quote means it is a contract. I have some legal experience

Your experience does not seem to be in contract law.

What are those three things again?

Actually its mostly contract law and the quote is the vaguest type of contract. I love vague because there is so much room for interpretation. It simply has 4 clauses. 'I agree to pay the installer on completion', 'I understand that the good remain the property of the installer until paid for in full', the tautological 'I understand these terms and conditions' and 'I waive my right to the 14-day cooling off period', which is as useful as a chocolate teapot.

---

So, the builder turned up when I got home.

I had earlier spoken to a friendly architect who advised a soakaway either under the drive or in the back garden if there wasn't enough room at the front. She said it was such a small job to get the driveway drainage approved I could just draw the plans for it myself in an hour with on some scale maps, no need for her to get involved. £85 for the application would be the entire cost. She seemed to think it was pretty common to not drain properly or to feed into a storm drain but she told me I was 'doing the right thing'. I can also apply retrospectively for the Certificate of Lawfulness apparently because they likely wont attend the site.

Back home now, there is definitely 5m space out the front so I agreed with the builder to go ahead with the soakaway. Turns out the drains are only sewage in our area anyway and not storm drains. All the rainwater drains are soakaways.

He claims that I don't need either planning permission or a certificate of lawfulness for the dropped kerb, however he agreed to provide written proof of this from the council. I hope for his sake he's not lying as I will confirm this with the council and wont be able to pay him until I do.

During our conversation he said he 'detected some trust issues', so we cleared the air. I told him after our surprise start yesterday I was on my back foot, so I did my research and found he has no reviews at all online. His company is only 3 years old and has only £3k worth of assets, which is either a lie/tax dodge or to avoid being sued in court. He did seem surprised and asked me what I did for a living at that point

Anyway, I told him straight I don't want any problems later. I'll get a letter/email from the council stating my drive and kerb are legal before payment and I'll pay him extra for adding the soakaway. He's charging £1750 for that, which I think is trying to recoup the cost of doing things properly. I'm fine with this.

 

[Footsoldier888]

An interesting account.

I appreciate you have good legal knowledge but all the building books I have read stress the importance of drawing up building contracts in a well defined manner. I think it is because there is the situation where the builder has performed the contract but the matierals used cause a defect. It can lead to a blame game where the builder says the client only wanted a basic drive and now it's sinking a bit doesn't mean it's not still a drive etc etc.

A classic point in this instance is hardcore. If you don't specify it the guy could put any old rubble in there and it will likely sink in future. Really it needs to say something like 'hardcore to be MOT type 1' if that is the specification.

There is a very good book called 'Driveways Paths and Patios' by Tony McCormack if you are interested. Read it for a couple of nights and you will be able to draw up a reasonable specification.

The trouble is if it's not done with the right matierals and the right way it will start to sink in a couple of years time when the builder is long gone.

The guy I know locally here who is good is on about a two month wait. Starting immediately and if he doesn't have a VAT number are major red flags if you have other doubts.

Regarding the PP it's your job to sort that unless you want to use a planning consultant. Don't leave it to a builder.

With the soakaway I suggest you ring building control at the council and notify them. You do need their approval as to placement. Best to check at least.

To me starting unannounced like that sounds like a cowboy tactic so as to make you feel obligated. Maybe I am wrong but it sounds weird.

 

[Tayjen]

An interesting account.

I appreciate you have good legal knowledge but all the building books I have read stress the importance of drawing up building contracts in a well defined manner. I think it is because there is the situation where the builder has performed the contract but the matierals used cause a defect. It can lead to a blame game where the builder says the client only wanted a basic drive and now it's sinking a bit doesn't mean it's not still a drive etc etc.

A classic point in this instance is hardcore. If you don't specify it the guy could put any old rubble in there and it will likely sink in future. Really it needs to say something like 'hardcore to be MOT type 1' if that is the specification.

There is a very good book called 'Driveways Paths and Patios' by Tony McCormack if you are interested. Read it for a couple of nights and you will be able to draw up a reasonable specification.

The trouble is if it's not done with the right matierals and the right way it will start to sink in a couple of years time when the builder is long gone.

The guy I know locally here who is good is on about a two month wait. Starting immediately and if he doesn't have a VAT number are major red flags if you have other doubts.

Regarding the PP it's your job to sort that unless you want to use a planning consultant. Don't leave it to a builder.

With the soakaway I suggest you ring building control at the council and notify them. You do need their approval as to placement. Best to check at least.

To me starting unannounced like that sounds like a cowboy tactic so as to make you feel obligated. Maybe I am wrong but it sounds weird.

Yeah, there have been a few alarm bells ringing so I've told him to provide a local recommendation from someone who had a tarmac drive installed at least a year ago so I can check their work. Also, I'm going to require a written confirmation that there is going to a dropped kerb with proof of authorisation from the council because that's not on the contract yet, and not to do any more work until that is in place.

 

[bernardgreen]

He claims that I don't need either planning permission or a certificate of lawfulness for the dropped kerb,

The kerb "belongs" to the Highways Department of your local council. If the builder interferes with the kerb without written permission from the Highways Department then he is acting illegally. The council may also consider taking action against you as the person employing the builder.

Have you confirmed that a dropped kerb will be permitted at the location ?. Highways Departments will not permit dropped kerbs and the implied vehicle access where such access would create a hazard to vehicles on the highway.

Starting work early without ringing the door bell and asking if it is OK to start work is unethical and suggests this builder may be using pressure tactics to get money out of customers.

Contact Trading Standards and tell them what is happening. They may know about this builder.

 

[Tayjen]

The kerb "belongs" to the Highways Department of your local council. If the builder interferes with the kerb without written permission from the Highways Department then he is acting illegally. The council may also consider taking action against you as the person employing the builder.

Have you confirmed that a dropped kerb will be permitted at the location ?. Highways Departments will not permit dropped kerbs and the implied vehicle access where such access would create a hazard to vehicles on the highway.

Starting work early without ringing the door bell and asking if it is OK to start work is unethical and suggests this builder may be using pressure tactics to get money out of customers.

Contact Trading Standards and tell them what is happening. They may know about this builder.

We're the second house from the end of a cul-de-sac on an estate and we're on the outside of a bend with another house that has a dropped kerb so its definitely safe and out of the way.

I've just got off the phone to Bucks Country Council. I explained the whole situation but all they care about is that the necessary planning application is put in, even though I know I don't need one. They don't care who the builder is. They seemed pretty ignorant about the whole process tbh. I even asked her what would happen if I just went ahead without any planning permission application and she just said 'you might be asked to reverse the work at your own cost, but that's between you and the builder' which seemed to indicate that I could probably get away with it

The more I look into this, the more I realise that the councils don't really care what is happening and the builders are probably taking advantage of this. The planning permission application is £175 on top of the £85 certificate of lawfulness, so not a backbreaker anyway. I'm probably going to see what the builder comes up with for the kerb. Even if he does the dodgy and I need to pay to get it legally authorised, its still going to be 2-3 hundred quid cheaper than using an authorised contractor like my neighbour.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Planning applications are entirely separate applications to Highways Dropped Kerb Applications and totally different departments deal with them.

Planning Applications for driveways: Planning Department
Dropped Kerb Applications: Highways Department

You need to speak with highways about new dropped kerbs/crossing a pavement.