DSG

[pipme]

Saw this on box tother night, paddle shifted too ... Beautiful !!

Volkswagen's innovative and advanced Direct Shift Gearbox combines the comfort of an automatic gearbox with the agility and economy of a manual unit.
The six-speed, transversely mounted DSG has two wet clutches (offering a higher thermal load tolerance than dry clutches) with hydraulic pressure regulation. One clutch controls the 'odd' gears plus reverse, while the other operates the 'even' gears. Essentially it is two gearboxes in one.
With this new clutch management system, the breaks in power that are typical of even an automatic-shift manual gearbox no longer occur. This is achieved by an intelligent hydraulic and electronic (mechatronic) gearbox control system, the two wet-type clutches and the two input and output shafts in each half of the gearbox.
This combination enables the next-higher gear ratio to remain engaged but on standby until it is actually selected. In other words, if the car is being driven in third gear, fourth is selected but not yet activated. As soon as the ideal shift point is reached, the clutch on the third-gear side opens, the other clutch closes and fourth gear engages under accurate electronic supervision.
Since the opening and closing actions of the two clutches overlap, a smooth gearshift results and the entire shift process is completed in less than four-hundredths of a second. In addition to its fully automatic shift mode, DSG has a tiptronic function to permit manual gear selection. In the Golf, the option of a paddle shift will become available towards the end of the year.
The option of DSG is available with the 1.9-litre and 2.0-litre diesel engines in the Golf. It commands a £1,480 premium over the manual five-speed gearbox (1.9-litre TDI) and a £1,260 premium over the manual six-speed GT TDI.

 

[AdamW]

This debuted on the Audi TT a couple of years ago didn't it? If I recall, based around the same principles as the Mansell-era semi-auto F1 gear boxes, although with those the driver manually preselected their next gear.

I wonder how well it will sell on the Golf? Will the traditional auto-market take to a sporty system over a slurring smooth torque convertor? Will the traditional sporty market be willing to pay a premium over a standard H-gate? How many times will we have to hear J Clarkson refer to it as a "stupid flappy gearbox"?

 

[pipme]

Plato was driving the Gti and demonstrated the paddled DSG very well, I was as impressed as he was ... He whacked it up and down the box .. I would imagine that type of gearbox and clutching would perform heavy successive rapid changes without complaining ..
Given the price of the Gti I would pay the extra for the techno gearbox .. even though it likely needs more servicing than normal.

Jeremy is only a boy racer of course !!

 

[AdamW]

I dunno if it would need that much more servicing: after all, the clutches would only get half the wear each that a normal clutch gets (the odd-gear one would get more than the even-gear clutch because of first gear pulling away). Also, a wet clutch doesn't wear so much by virtue of the fact it is encased in a lovely heat-dissipating fluid.

Also, you have the benefit that a computer is shifting the gears in a near-perfect fashion rather than a hamfisted lunk who is thrashing the gears and loosening the linkage

Although I bet when something goes wrong, it's pretty pricey to fix! If you get one, let us know what the warranty and service schedule say about the gearbox

 

[AdamW]

Just looked at the performance figures for the Golf GTI DSG, 0-62 in 6.9 seconds. Pretty quick.

But the Sierra Cosworth, also a 2l turbocharged engine with 204bhp to the Golf's 200, did 0-60 in 6.2 seconds.

 

[pipme]

Cossy 'did' is the operative word, Gti plus relative acres of driver aides and safety features, 'does' and is still doing so since the 70's, being that close behind timewise with the ability to become a docile shopping trolley, an easy drive auto or a slick, paddle shifting buccaneer ... Cars improve, techno waites for no one, nice to see innovation feeding down to lower levels ...

I would guess the DSG box requires more service than a standard box ... hard worked fluid / oil ... oil cooler required ... heat and shear kills oil, probably relatively fine oilways plus wet clutches point to filter being required.
I don't know, but hazard a guess at a few pints of liquid gold plus filter .. maybe some adjustment, probably more difficult than standard clutch manual adjustment .. at a service period of say 15k ??? Gonna add lots to service cost.

 

[AdamW]

Yes, good point, hadn't thought of a transmission fluid filter. I suppose the closest analogy before the DSG is the automatics with a locking torque convertor. Do they need a filter for the clutch wear?

Anytime you increase complexity you reduce inherent reliability, so I think you are right. However, in the case of a lunkhead driver who loosens gear linkages by slamming the gearstick about, it should last a bit longer.

Any idea on the type of gears used? Planetary gears like an auto or is it more like a standard manual just with hydraulic actuators?

 

[pipme]

The latter I think ... Plato's test included some film of cutaway gearbox in motion ... very neat, well engineered and had a standard look (the aerospace - polished appearance - perhaps for display only) .. Must look for more info.

Plato was well taken and obviously enjoyed playing with the DSG car .. the up changes were just like a mo-bike, the merest blip in the engine rpm .. In the past some bikers used the handlebar mounted 'cut-out' button to take power off whilst fast gear shifting, quicker than rolling the throttle back and forth .. made great sounds when properly carried out -- used as a power switch I suppose.

 

[AdamW]

I've never ridden anything bigger than a 125cc, but I found that on the Yamaha 125 I trained on it was perfectly possible to upshift without the clutch and barely releasing any pressure on the throttle.

Quite an old website http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/NewsID/2021129.001/volkswagen/1.html

Volkswagen invested 150 million Euro in the DSG production system; up to 1,000 units can be produced daily in the gearbox factory in Kassel.

In the even sportier mode (position “S”), the engine and gearbox control units even activate a form of rev-matching, which further enhances the shift dynamics: Using wheel speeds provided by the ABS, the gearbox control unit ensures that no unintended up-shift occurs in the middle of a curve.

Blimey, it's even quicker to accelerate and more fuel efficient than using a standard manual!

 

[pipme]

The gut feel was that this was good .... Bl##dy good, all round good !!

This is the future. The rise and rise of the automated dual-clutch manual gearbox is upon us. The first DSG system appeared in the Audi TT V6 last year and it has since found its way into other Audi products. Now it's a £1325 option on the superb new Golf GTi. It's a stern test of the new 'box, for it's the first time it's appeared in a genuinely exciting and cutting-edge driver's car. There are rumours that Porsche (which has previously dismissed paddle-shift 'boxes as being too harsh and inefficient) is looking at a similar system for the next GT3, while another VW Group car, the Bugatti Veyron, should follow soon after. The death knell for the manual gearbox?
Now, here at evo we're proud Luddites when it comes to changing gear, but in recent months even we've had to admit that some of the latest paddle-operated manual 'boxes are getting close to perfection. The best is that of the Ferrari F430, a system so good that Richard Meaden urged us not to deny ourselves this new dimension of driving enjoyment. Its blend of savagery and speed allows for more commitment and more options into and through a corner - thrills that make up for the loss of the tactile pleasure of a peachy shift. The DSG 'box is quicker still and so smooth it makes even the F430's shift feel slightly slow-witted. Can you see where this is headed...?........ Slip the lever into S and the GTi hangs onto its ratios longer, downchanging keenly with the merest whiff of pressure on the brake pedal, but to be honest it's so 'sporty' that driving the Golf smoothly is almost impossible. You feel locked into qualifying mode and the S setting never allows you to row along on the GTi's ample spread of torque........ Of course GTi drivers will probably stick it into manual and enjoy instant up- and downshifts, accessing every last bit of performance and engine braking. If they do there's no doubt the DSG offers incredible shift speed - in effect it is instantaneous, as drive is never disengaged - and VW has engineered in a little more character than Audi manages. It switches gear with a delicious 'pop', and it's mesmerising to see the revs soar or die in an instant between shifts.

That 'pop' is the 'blip' I referred to in the case of the mo-bike 'cutout' button.
When redlining in an intermediate gear on mo-bike, the power had to be removed .. if box of neutrals should be selected, then an expensive 'bang' could rapidly follow... (had one of those .. piston lost company with the gudgeon pin (piston to con rod) .. 'orrible sounds .. lucky the rod remained inside the cylinder ..) expensive !

When ??