earthing

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when wiring my aluminium greenhouse via a 2way cu in the garage,if I export the earth to a spike, do I need rcd protection in the garage if power supply from house is rcd protected.Is the body of the greenhouse also connected to earth spike.Also am I correct in that the swa running into garage is not to be connected to earth in cu and armour has to be insulated, any advice would be appreciated :?:
 
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Welcome.

Does the greenhouse have any extraneous conductive parts. Search the forum if you aren't sure what this is.

You said "...in the garage,if I export the earth to a spike". What do you mean by this?

We can help, but I don't fully understand the situation. Please explain further.

Things that might help include:
Is the Garage attached or detached to the house?
Is there already an earth spike somewhere?
Is the greenhouse a typical greenhouse or does it have other services (water pipes etc.)?
Is the SWA 3 core or 2?

The more information the better.
 
The phrase extraneous-conductive-part which means something metal outside is very confusing as if one hammers in an earth spike with a TN system instead of it being called an earth electrode it's called an extraneous-conductive-part together with water pipes etc.

There was a good article on earthing on outbuildings but just looked on IET web site and it has been removed I guess as it was written before 17th Edition came out.

However distance is a major consideration and with garages, sheds and green houses in back gardens of housing estates where the PME system encircles the whole estate there is no need for earth stakes. However where the building is remote from the house with just fields surrounding it there can be a problem with the voltage gradient of the earth and consideration has to be given to using a TT supply.

However to produce a TT supply is not easy as not only do you need to ensure the earth rod you install is making a good enough contact but also the existing rods are also good enough so that the RCD will always protect.

Also of course the connection and surrounding area of an earth rod can have a steep voltage gradient so is always covered so animals (including people) can't touch it.

The RCD measures in and out and if within 15ma of each other will hold in so where on the circuit it is fitted will not matter if current goes to earth rather than completing the circuit it will trip.

The whole idea of SWA is if any thing hit it the earthed steel armouring will both protect and if that fails insure the supply is automatic disconnected so the armour is earthed. However in some cases provision is made to disconnect the earth to pressure test. Common with street lighting to have this so after contractors have been working in area the council can test to see if they caught the cable and damaged the insulation but can't see this being an issue in a domestic installation.

So likely answers are:-

do I need rcd protection in the garage if power supply from house is rcd protected.
Not normally
Is the body of the greenhouse also connected to earth spike.
Yes if using a TT supply.
Also am I correct in that the swa running into garage is not to be connected to earth in cu and armour has to be insulated.
No incorrect armour normally earthed.

However although likely as explained there are exceptions and must depends on exactly what supply you have, and how far the buildings are from each other. And what other buildings surround you.
 
The phrase extraneous-conductive-part which means something metal outside is very confusing as if one hammers in an earth spike with a TN system instead of it being called an earth electrode it's called an extraneous-conductive-part together with water pipes etc.

There was a good article on earthing on outbuildings but just looked on IET web site and it has been removed I guess as it was written before 17th Edition came out.

However distance is a major consideration and with garages, sheds and green houses in back gardens of housing estates where the PME system encircles the whole estate there is no need for earth stakes. However where the building is remote from the house with just fields surrounding it there can be a problem with the voltage gradient of the earth and consideration has to be given to using a TT supply.

However to produce a TT supply is not easy as not only do you need to ensure the earth rod you install is making a good enough contact but also the existing rods are also good enough so that the RCD will always protect.

Also of course the connection and surrounding area of an earth rod can have a steep voltage gradient so is always covered so animals (including people) can't touch it.

The RCD measures in and out and if within 15ma of each other will hold in so where on the circuit it is fitted will not matter if current goes to earth rather than completing the circuit it will trip.

The whole idea of SWA is if any thing hit it the earthed steel armouring will both protect and if that fails insure the supply is automatic disconnected so the armour is earthed. However in some cases provision is made to disconnect the earth to pressure test. Common with street lighting to have this so after contractors have been working in area the council can test to see if they caught the cable and damaged the insulation but can't see this being an issue in a domestic installation.

So likely answers are:-

do I need rcd protection in the garage if power supply from house is rcd protected.
Not normally
Is the body of the greenhouse also connected to earth spike.
Yes if using a TT supply.
Also am I correct in that the swa running into garage is not to be connected to earth in cu and armour has to be insulated.
No incorrect armour normally earthed.

However although likely as explained there are exceptions and must depends on exactly what supply you have, and how far the buildings are from each other. And what other buildings surround you.

Just a quickie lads... I was reading a recent-ish NICEIC mag and it contained something about caravans plugged into TN electrics at home - the article MAY be appropriate for the Greenhouse/rcd/earth spike scenerio
 
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If the frame of an aluminium greenhouse is connected to the electrical earth supplied from the house then it is very likely that its potential will be the same as the network neutral supply to the house and NOT the true ground potential of the ground on which the green hosue is standing.

If the aluminium can then make contact with the ground this is effectively a ground spike providing a route from supply network neutral to the ground. In times of un-balanced load on the phases in the local area the network neutral could be several volts different from true ground potential leading to current flow from aluminium to the ground it is standing on.

What effect ( corrosive ) would this current have on the structure of the glasshouse ?

Is that a good reason the export live and neutral from the house and install the green house wiring as TT ? What do the regulations suggest.
 
from that document :-

An exposedconductive-part connected to one means of earthing
must not be simultaneously accessible with an exposedconductive-part connected to another means of earthing (Regulation 413-02-03 refers).

Which suggests to me that there is a hazard from touching two metal items that are earthed in different ways. Earth is earth isn't it ?

Well it seems not when one "earth" is a rod in the ground and the other "earth" is supplied by some other source such as the neutral in a PME system. Seems it is recognised that these two earths may have a voltage difference between them leading to high currents in the earthing conductors if they were connected together or electric shock hazard if they are not.


Where the installation in the garage is supplied by an armoured cable, the armour or any protective conductor in the cable must not be connected to and must not be simultaneously-accessible with any exposed-conductive-parts in the outbuilding.

Is this due to worries about high "earth" to earth currents that might melt the conductor ( no fuses in earth conductors ).

All seems a bit of a mess.

Don't even think about the outside tap on the wall on copper pipework that is equipotentially bonded to the electrical "earth" inside the house.
This is the "earth" which cannot be connected to the real earth. The real earth which might be connected to something conductive which is being held by the person who touches the tap.
 
thanks everyone for your replies,you have gathered I'm new to this forum.In answer to questions posed,
1 the garage is detached from the bungalow
2 there is an earth spike but this is at the far end of the bungalow approx 20 metres from the garage.The supply to the house is tt earthed as we are in rural ireland with overhead supply,There is a 4mm swacable running underground (2 core & earth) from the cu in the house to a two way cu in the garage, distance of around7 metres.
I ran a 2.5mm swa (2 core & earth) from the cu in the garage to my greenhouse, this is approx 600mm deep in the ground, Ihave not made connections yet cos' I'm confused by this earth problem. The only load that will be used in the greenhouse is a 2.4kw heater which if I've done the sums right the 2.5 cable should cope.
The greenhouse is approx 10 m from the cu in the garage, there are no water pipes etc in there, the only metal is the ally frame itself.Ihad intended to put the earth spike in the greenhouse and connect swa earth. to this.Some simple advice would be great :eek: :?:
 

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