Electrical Connections In Airing Cupboard

[jellybean2009]

Hi There,

I am in the process of overhauling my bathroom and am struggling with what wiring is necessary.

I was expecting the bath I have purchased to require a single connection for which I planned to spur from a socket on the landing into the airing cupboard (which the socket backs onto) where it would connect to a Fused Connection Unit (FCU). I would then run the cable from the whirlpool pump into the FCU in the airing cupboard install the appropriate fuse and enjoy soothing jacuzzi bath.

As it turns out the bath has turned up supplied with a separate whirlpool pump and separate blower. In addition it looks like I will also need a booster pump for the hot water so all in all 3 connections will be required.

Can anyone outline what my options are for this arrangement. As I understand it I cannot install 1 FCU and spur off it again and again. Can I extend the ringmain to encompass the 3 FCUs and if so is a junction box required for each as I can see no examples online of FCUs being added except as individual spurs off sockets.

For info the wattage of the 3 devices are:
Whirlpool Pump - 750W
Air Blower - 1100W
Booster Pump - 118W max

Any help much appreciated. Thank you very much.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Yes, of course you can add a string of FCUs as part of a ring final circuit.

Please folow the maker's instructions re fusing and you'll need to provide an RCD on all circuits in that bathroom.(including the lights)
Oh yes, and notify the local authority before work starts.

 

[jellybean2009]

Thanks TTC!

So to clarify I need to wire as follows:

Existing: RING---SOCKET 1---SOCKET 2---RING

Proposed: RING---SOCKET 1---FCU 1---FCU 2---FCU 3---SOCKET 2---RING

And on the FCUs I connect the circuit above through the mains supply terminals (1 wire in 1 wire out) and the appliances to the load terminals as normal.

The circuit in question is covered by a 30MA RCD at the consumer unit so no worries in that regard.

Really appreciate the help, I couldn't find a precedent for 3 FCUs so wasn't confident just steaming in.

 

[jellybean2009]

Can anyone confirm that what I am proposing in my last post is correct?

Many thanks

 

[Taylortwocities]

Yes, that's just fine.

Remember to put the correct fuses in the FCUs. They'll probably come with 13amp.

You'll need 5amp for the blower and 3 amp for the other two. (or as recommended by the manufacturers)

 

[jellybean2009]

really helpful TTC thanks very much for your help

it's forums like these that remind you that theres still a lot of good natured unselfish and helpful people in the world despite what the media leads us to believe..

 

[Taylortwocities]

 

[skenk]

It looks like you want to add 3 FCU's to the ring.

If however you are spurring off the ring at one point ant not joining the last FCU back into the ring you would want to connect the 3 FCU's fed from the LOAD side of a 4th FCU (with 13A fuse).

It is preferable to add the FCU's to the ring, to do this from one socket you will need to run 2 cables to the FCU's (one to the first and the other to the last) and make a junction box in the back of the socket, which could be problematic.

Don't forget to notify and pay the BC fee. (or you could just get someone in and save yourself the hassle!)

 

[jellybean2009]

thanks skenk your post has got me thinking.........

i had a look in the back of the socket outside the airing cupboard last night. it is definitely part of the ring main and not a spur however there is almost no slack in the cables and i cannot tell which sockets are adjacent to it (the floor is compressed board and cannot be lifted without cutting holes in it).

1) Does this work actually need notifying under building control part P? These FCUs are being installed in an airing cupboard which is not defined as a special location and the work to be performed is "adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit" which is not a special installation. Or does the fact that two of the devices (ie bath pumps) to be connected to the FCUs (albeit within the cupboard) are locatated in the bathroom override this?

2) Are you suggesting that if I spur off the socket with a single wire, install a first FCU with 13A fuse and then connect 3 FCUs to the load from the first FCU this is a pefectly safe and acceptable solution. I presume this is because the max load for a 13A is c3KW and my 3 devices only draw c2KW so it is no different to creating a single spur and then plugging in say a 3KW kettle? If the work doesn't need notifying and I do the job myself I am confident I could achieve this.

3) Given 2 is extending the ring still the best option? If so can you advise how I would go about creating a junction box within the socket. I presume I cant just have all 4 wires straight into the back of the socket - do i have to use connection blocks or is there a better way (bearing in mind there is no slack cable)?

thanks for all the help and advice

 

[skenk]

1) Sounds like part of the fixed installation will be in the bathroom and so should be notified although I don't actually have any direct experience of the English system. In any case how you know it's safe if it hasn't been tested (correct tests using the correct $$$ equipment) or inspected by BC?

2) Yes this would be acceptable although it is recommended that fixed eqpt using >2000w should have it's own circuit (otoh if this ring does not serve the kitchen or other high power stuff and the bath isn't being used a lot then I wouldn't have any issue with it).

3) Yes extending is still preferable, if you can't figure out how it should be wired at the socket then I would question your competence to be doing this work. No all 4 wires would NOT be in the socket this would interconnect the ring (=bad) This is where the difficulties i mentioned could arise . . . without seeing it I don't know but you may need to extend cables, crimp (with correct tool), dig in a deeper back box, fit a twin single box etc etc. If you get someone in (who is any good) they will be able to asses the best course of action and do it, at a guess, at least 4 times faster than you and would probably have all the required tools and materials on the van or readily available without multiple trips to the 'sheds.

Please don't think i'm trying to discourage you too much as I think it's well within the remit of a DIYer to do what you propose it's just I find customers who can afford fancy whirlpool baths and the like can do without the hassle. I you earn more in , say, the 8 hours it's going to take you to do it all including trips to the 'sheds etc than you would be paying for a spark to do it then does it still make sense to DIY? (not to mention notification fee & materials).

Good luck!

 

[jellybean2009]

thanks skenk

just to clarify I am a DIYer and don't claim to be an expert in electrics but would say I have a basic knowledge, am of reasonable intelligence and can follow guidance. i did indicate that I thought connecting 4 wires (technical term interconnecting) was wrong. i was expecting to do a straightforward ring extension but it would seem fairly clear that the junction box approach within a socket is probably beyond my capabilities.

the reason I can afford a fancy whirlpool bath is simply because I have chosen to do the refit (tiling, plumbing, painting, etc) myself and use up excess holiday therefore what I have saved on labour can be spent on some extra luxury.

can anybody else offer their opinion on whether this is notifiable work in England or not. if it is clearly a sparky is cheaper than the BC inspection fees and i would follow this route.

if it is not notifiable this leaves me with option 2. the kitchen, central heating and bedroom above kitchen is on it's own circuit separate to the one i would be spurring from. is there a tidier way than 3 FCUs connected into 1x 13A FCU (i.e do I definately need 1 FCU per piece of equipment?)

thanks people

 

[skenk]

Fair enough on the cost thing.

Seeing as nobody else has replied I would say that assuming the pump and whatnot is going to be adjacent to/under the bath then it should be notified as it will be electrical work in a bathroom - no getting around that with a bath which needs electricity!

The FCUs would also be better placed adjacent to the equipment (although in airing cupboard would be acceptable). A neater option might be to install a single 3 gang socket lke this http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MKK2737.html No further FCU would be required as there is a 13A fuse in the socket.

Even if it isn't notifiable (which it is) would you not still want to know that it's safe? How old i your installation and what nick is it in? The exiting circuit you are connecting into will need to be up to scratch, when was the last time it was tested? Is your bonding adequate? (or even present?) How will the new stuff in the bathroom be RCD protected? Do you not want a competent person helping or at least someone checking over your work as you install mains voltage pumps and motors next to where you'll be lying in water and where you're not even allowed to plug in a phone charger?

I don't know even if you have a multimeter or know how to check for a ring?

 

[jellybean2009]

thanks skenk your postings are very helpful and I appreciate them

like the 3 gang socket approach, very tidy but don't like the fact that in the future someone could then plug in a portable device in the airing cupboard and use it in the bathroom. it is a shame that you cant get a 3 gang fcu with independant fuses - i.e same arrangment without the plugs!

i take it i cannot consolidate into less FCUs because the fuses required for each of the 3 devices are different - 5A for blower, and 3A for whirlpool pump and booster pump. no chance I can put the 2 pumps into a single FCU at 5A?

bathroom layout is as below, to me it makes perfect sense to run the flexes from the bath, through wall into the airing cupboard for connection rather than connect them under the bath where the FCUs cannot be accessed once panel in place

Untitled

• jellybean2009
• 4 Dec 2009
• 1

i hear you loud and clear re safety/inspection. the circuit used does not power the kitchen/high power devices and is protected by RCD at the consumer unit. i agree I am not in a position to test throughly but I would be confident making good connections. except for the bathroom aspect what is proposed is no different to using a fused 4 gang extention like under the tv only difference is it is hard wired in. an fcu is just a permanent connection without a plug at the end of the day is it not?

i don't want to sound harsh but in the course of my projects I have seen the signed off work performed by so called "competent persons" when my house was built by a major name builder 10 years ago (it is relatively unmodified by the previous owner). e.g. would you build a false wall out of plywood and tile straight onto it within a shower so you could fit a cheaper, smaller tray; would you fasten tiles with silicon/no more nails because you ran out of tile adhesive; would you run pipes through joists (correctly) or have long runs unsupported directly beneath the floor; would you have cabling directly beneath the P trap on a bath, etc? (this is what I have actually found, there could be more!)

so you can understand me garnering unbiased opinion as to what is required and whether I can do it myself first even if ultimately I may have to get someone to do it at least I will be confident to challenge them if I think it is wrong. as it happens now you have clarified re notification i will have to get the installation inspected/tested at the very least

 

[ban-all-sheds]

it is a shame that you cant get a 3 gang fcu with independant fuses

3 switch modules and 3 fuse modules.

You can get switches with engraved legends, or have custom engraving done on the faceplate.

Other makes and designs of grid systems are available.

as it happens now you have clarified re notification i will have to get the installation inspected/tested at the very least

You need to think carefully about this. If you decide that you want it all to be legal then you have to notify LABC in advance, submit your application for Building Regulations approval, and then follow their process for inspection and testing. You will not be able to comply with the law by DIYing and then getting an electrician to inspect and test it, no matter how good a job you do or how clean an I&T report you get.

 

[jellybean2009]

thanks ban-all-sheds

understood re the notification, i should contact Building Control in advance to understand the process and costs involved. then i can weigh up the costs against a quote from a part p registered electrician.

a modular system looks an excellent solution for a tidy finish. if i do decide to go ahead myself (after notifying) can you advise re the following queries

1)what type of wire is required within the module box - is 2.5mm twin core and earth like the ring main fine (needed for the spur anyway) or is a lower guage cable required?

2)why are there 10A and 20A switch modules available. surely the fuse module provides the protection not the switch. i believe 10A is fine for all my devices, just curious

3) obviously I would connect via a 13A fuse module (8 gang needed then with 1 blank)/separate fcu first and then a switch module and fuse module for each device fe from the load side of the first fuse however which order should I use for the subsequent connections a)SWITCH-FUSE-DEVICE or b)FUSE-SWITCH-DEVICE

thanks for all the help