Frame and panel question

[MisterFish]

I have an old Victorian House. The house has a cellar and the staircase to the cellar runs under and parallel with the staircase to the first floor.

There is a frame and panel cellar door set in a frame and panel wall that both closes off the cellar staircase and forms the side wall beneath the higher staircase and above the lower one. Photo Here

The previous owners painted all of this, (several times I think).

When we arrived we installed central heating and shortly thereafter some of the panels, both in the door and the wall, split quite badly. Photo Here (Incidentally the cracks in the photo go right through the panels, they are not just cracks in the paint)

I think what happened is that the paint had sealed the panels in place, the central heating dried and shrank the wood and the splits were the result of the tension between the two.

Anyhow. Repairing.

I guess I'm going to need to strip the paint, fill the wood splits and then not repeat the same mistake.

The first two of these I can do, but I don't think I'm going to be able to get the wood sufficiently paint free to, say, just polish the wood, which would be my preferred option. I'm think I'm going to have to repaint somehow.

Does anyone have any thoughts on materials or methods to ensure that I don't simply replicate the original problem?

 

[bobasd]

paneling like yours in doors or partitions usuly had a bolection mouldings surround trim.the panels should have had a 1/8" gap all round.
cut the paintwork to free the trim and slowly prise it out.
fix the new panels loose. ply panels?

 

[MisterFish]

Thanks for getting back to me.

Yeah I'd thought about that and pretty much discounted it for two reasons;

1. Most importantly, damage. The mouldings are delicate things and I'm not certain how they would have been attached. I would guess glued and nailed, (or just nailed into the frame). This, combined with their being well, (closely), joined on the corners makes the prying all the more hazardous to the health of the mouldings. There are quite a few damaged panels with four moulding to the panel. I can't replace them if I break even one of them. So, seems a bit high risk. No?

2. Assuming I get the mouldings off, I think that the panels would usually be bedded into the frames all round. Not tightly bedded in, they need to breathe, but bedded all the same. I imagine it would be difficult to get the old panels out of that situation, (they would need to be cut out). More importantly the only way to get the new ones in without completely dismantling the frames would be to cut them to exactly the sise of the holes and use only the mouldings to hold them in place. Not ideal I think.

I've never done this so I might have misunderstood the situation or your suggestion.

Any thoughts?

 

[Gerrydelasel]

In a door of that age the mouldings will normally be nailed on with clasp nails, making them a real pain to remove without damage. I wouldn't even bother to attempt it. I suppose you could replace with new, but then the job is expanding to fill the money available to contain it... (From the pics I can see you have simple panel moulding btw, not bolection moulding)
First of all, does it really matter? Old houses have cracks -it gives them character, and it's not like the staircase is immaculate (I see the original spindles are gone). tbh I think a decent paint job would do more good than worrying about the cracks.
But if you're really bothered then you can glue thin cardboard or lining paper onto the panels, then paint over.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

1...... The mouldings are delicate things and I'm not certain how they would have been attached. I would guess glued and nailed, (or just nailed into the frame).

Just pinned into the frame (not the panel) - never glued. When you glue panels and mouldings in frame and panel work the panel is no longer free to move with changes in the atmosphere and it cracks. Most likely paint has seeped into the gaps between the panel and the frame/moulding and has acted just like glue would on the cracked ones

Getting the mouldings is indeed high risk - you invariably damage a little bit of it. Part of the trick is to have the right tools

2. Assuming I get the mouldings off, I think that the panels would usually be bedded into the frames all round. Not tightly bedded in, they need to breathe, but bedded all the same. I imagine it would be difficult to get the old panels out of that situation, (they would need to be cut out). More importantly the only way to get the new ones in without completely dismantling the frames would be to cut them to exactly the sise of the holes and use only the mouldings to hold them in place. Not ideal I think.

Not bedded at all - but slightly loose and sitting in a rebate (once the moulding has been removed), although residual paint and other finishes, such as varnish or French polish runs can effectively "glue" the panel to the frame as well. When new it's the mouldings alone with pins which hold the panels in and nothing else

If you are trying to get these off it invariably takes a lot of fiddling around. As much finish as possible should be scraped off (sanding tends to damage the mouldings), the joints knifed with a Stanley knife to break any paint skin (carefully so as not to damage the panels or frames, either) and then the mouldings gently eased off with a thin cat's paw (Japanese reform bar - a proper, very thin Jap one), a thin sharp chisel (1-1/2in or so although a sash pocket chisel is better), and maybe a thin scraper knife (decorator's tool) or two.

There is just the possibility that the panel edge moulding was worked onto the edges of the frame elements, though. Any idea what the backs of the frames look like? (e.g. the door) If this is done there will be signs of a retaining moulding around the back of the panel, often a rectangular or 1/4 round bead

In a door of that age the mouldings will normally be nailed on with clasp nails, making them a real pain to remove without damage.

I'm afraid I disagree. I've done enough refurb work on old panelling to say that in my experience clasps were very rarely used on mouldings made in a joiners shop after about the 1860/70s. I suspect that panelling is a somewhat newer (earlier period panelling tended to be wider). You find lost head round pins or nails, veneer pins or small panel pins appearing during the mid-Victorian period (at which point clasps are confined to joists, beams, floor boards and skirtings inside a house - they were common on floor boards around here until the 1990s) with small oval nails (French nails) coming in from about the 1880s/90s. In general cut clasps would leave too big a hole and require loads of filling and disguising, so they were only used on painted work - grand or "public" stairs (as opposed to servants stairs) were often stained and French polished originally. I have seen very small cut clasps, but never under about 1in in length - panel pins, lost heads and even small tacks were 1/2in and upwards and presumably came in response to the change to smaller pinned beadings made possible by the spindle moulder which had become far more common from the 1860s onwards (try "sticking" any serious amount of very small beading in softwood with a hand moulding plane and a sticking board and you'll understand why)

 

[Gerrydelasel]

I'm afraid I disagree. I've done enough refurb work on old panelling to say that in my experience clasps were very rarely used on mouldings made in a joiners shop after about the 1860/70s.

YMMV. So far I've not encountered anything but small cut clasps on late victorian doors, even with smallish mouldings. They were surprisingly successful at filling and staining!

 

[bobasd]

ive only seen clasped nails in heavier stuff never in small section mouldings.ive only used clasped nails in board and batten gates. clasping in delicat sections will split them and bruise the woodsurface .even cut nails in old skirtings and frameswere simply driven in and sunk with a nail set.
looking at the photos again maybe its not bolection moulding but some kind ofbeading?
removing beading or mouldings from any joinery is a simple job, cut it free, and use a couple of painters scraper or what SF 40721 calls a filling knife to easit off.

 

[Gerrydelasel]

even cut nails in old skirtings and frameswere simply driven in and sunk with a nail set.

Maybe what you call a cut nail is what I've been calling a (small) clasp nail? That's what I've seen in mouldings like these. They grip like a bastard and make mouldings extremely difficult to remove without major damage.

 

[geraldthehamster]

I second the comment that if the panels are stripped and waxed, the narrow splits will not detract from their character.