Hardwall over bright nails?

[oldman2]

I prefered the old way, where the conduits were chased into the brick/blockwork. A lot more work to do it that way i know, but far easier to plaster over,,,,, and the plaster covered over them deeper too,,,,, imo.

Roughcaster.

It would have been fairly easy work to cut the boxes/conduit back into the soft block but I would have worried that I had taken so much material away with the chases that the already soft structure of these modern blocks could be compromised by so many chases in such a small area.

As to the depth of plaster over the present capping, I must admit that does concern me a little. With 10mm hardwall and a couple of mm top coat its going to be a little thin over the quite flexible capping.

I did originally intend the walls to be plasterboarded but the spreads that came to quote all suggested they would want to hardwall instead and I guess they should know best.

 

[oldman2]

Well its still not plastered, the guy was coming last weekend then couldnt and was due this weekend but has a family emergency now so cant.

I have found another company to do the work starting Tuesday but the original spread was hardwalling it all, the new company says its the same price if its hardwall or plasterboarded.

Its a kitchen, which is prefereable? I am leaning towards hardwall, no cavities for kitchen cabinets to attach through...

 

[Richard C]

the new company says its the same price if its hardwall or plasterboarded.

Very surprised at that, putting on a Hardwall base is more work. How did this guys price compare with the previous guy? If it’s similar for Hardwall, I would expect a discount for D&D/skim.

Its a kitchen, which is prefereable? I am leaning towards hardwall, no cavities for kitchen cabinets to attach through...

I’d would definitely agree with you; regardless of what room it is, I'd go for a "proper" plaster job every time . Be carefull, have you had any recomendations/can you see any of their work.

 

[oldman2]

This company was £100 more than the guy that was going to do the job, but I managed to get them to drop the price by £70 as I was aware that they dont have full order books atm. Its quiet for most trades around here atm.

I have not seen their work, though they are an approved council contractor and been working locally since 1974, have to take a risk with someone.

£600 gets me a plasterboarded and finished ceiling 2.8 x 3.6mtr, plus 1 wall (in pic) 3.6 x 2.4mtr and all the stubby walls where the windows were removed to floor level and a wall with a window in that also needs plastering.
A fair amount of fiddly corner work in there.

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Beggers cant be choosers, I have lost 2 weeks due to the other guy not being able to get here, the tiler is due the day after the plasterers finish and I need to allow time for the plaster to dry before painting.
The plan was to install the kitchen 14th Dec onwards (delivery day) but I think with plumbing and gas work yet to plan in I may be fitting on Xmas day!
Cold turkey again

 

[Richard C]

the tiler is due the day after the plasterers finish and I need to allow time for the plaster to dry before painting.

Oh dear I would definitely not advise that, you need to let it dry out thoroughly before tilling/painting. Plasterboard & a skim will need 10 -14 days & if you go Hardwall base & skim up to 4 weeks. Even though it may look dry, the moisture content will still be relatively high & if you tile/paint in that condition, you will trap the residual moisture in there & it could all end in tears.

 

[oldman2]

Sorry Richard, I knew what I meant...Floor tiles to lay not wall

Dont want floor tiles down before walls are done.

 

[Richard C]

Sorry Richard, I knew what I meant...Floor tiles to lay not wall

Dont want floor tiles down before walls are done.

Oh I see; my brain was obviously fixed in wall mode didn’t want you making any potentially disastrous mistakes.
That’s a pretty good price for the job, hope it works out OK for you.

 

[oldman2]

Plasterers arrived today, boarded ceiling, hardwalled all the walls, plasterboarded the window reveals and plastered them.

When they left there was 1 window wall still to be multied and 2 stubs where the window once was (now an opening to a room) to finish.

Firstly should the plaster have been cut back to clean lines around the electrical boxes before it set hard or is it ok to do that later, tomorrow?

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The ceiling has several lighting points with cable drops, these surely should have been finished off already to a better finish than this? I have a 6ft fluorescent fitting going over these 2 cables, looks to me like its going to leave a nasty gap between fitting and ceiling.

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I shouldnt be able to see scrim tape showing through the plaster should I.

Finally the window sill is finished but as you can see the bead and the plaster run downhill some 5mm or more over 1mtr.

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I have a 3mtr straight edge that I will put on the wall tomorrow, but I think I already know what the result will be.
I did tell them I was fitting a kitchen and wanted the worktop to fit the wall, not touch here and there. They asked if I was tiling the walls, I wasnt sure why they asked at the time but maybe it was so my tiles can hide the wobbly plaster.

Advice please...

 

[Richard C]

Firstly should the plaster have been cut back to clean lines around the electrical boxes before it set hard or is it ok to do that later, tomorrow?

It’s easier to trim back immediately after it’s gone off & I do it automatically as part of the cleaning up operation; takes seconds. It’s more likely to chip back from the edge once fully set but if you give it a sharp tap with a scraper it should break off OK. I assume those cables aren’t live I always secure the cables into a terminal block & tape them into a sandwich bag to avoid any mishaps; it keeps them clean + water steel trowels & electricity don’t mix particularly well.

The ceiling has several lighting points with cable drops, these surely should have been finished off already to a better finish than this?

Looks a bit scummy & uneven around the cables but it depends what the rest of it is like?

I have a 6ft fluorescent fitting going over these 2 cables, looks to me like its going to leave a nasty gap between fitting and ceiling.

I cant tell how flat it is between the 2 cables from the pics. but it should be within a reasonable tolerance over the whole ceiling.

I shouldnt be able to see scrim tape showing through the plaster should I.

No.

Finally the window sill is finished but as you can see the bead and the plaster run downhill some 5mm or more over 1mtr.

That’s just sloppy, it should be level & tiles will show it up.

I have a 3mtr straight edge that I will put on the wall tomorrow, but I think I already know what the result will be.

I did tell them I was fitting a kitchen and wanted the worktop to fit the wall, not touch here and there. They asked if I was tiling the walls, I wasnt sure why they asked at the time but maybe it was so my tiles can hide the wobbly plaster.

You will inevitably get small discrepancies, especially on an old wall but it shouldn’t be obviously noticeable; the trick is to take extra care at worktop level. It is usual to tile down over the workshop & this will hide minor discrepancies but the wall must be flat to give a good tile base or it makes the tillers job harder & may even be noticeable; large tiles are the worse & you will need as flat a wall base as possible.

It doesn’t sound too good from what you’ve said but it’s difficult to be critical of others work without actually seeing the job overall; what’s the rest of it like? More pictures might help? If not satisfied, you must give them the opportunity to rectify the problems BEFORE you pay them & don’t pay until you are satisfied.

 

[oldman2]

Thanks for the reply Richard.
The imo best, most helpful of the guys that were here yesterday turned up today to finish the job on his own.
I showed him all my concerns and he is busy rectifying others work.

None of the cables were live btw

He's going to cut back around all the boxes and make good if need be.

He's put a 2nd bead along the window sill edge and replastered it, he recons it was up to 15mm out.

He says he will sandpaper the ceiling high parts where the fitting will sit.

Looking like with this guy working on his own I will get a satisfactory conclusion to the job.
I had no intention of paying until its right

I will get some more pics up once he's sorted it and gone.

 

[oldman2]

Here is the finished room, I think its ok now. He addressed all the problems I highlighted, so as long as I didnt miss anything I am good to go. Floor tiler in tomorrow then I need to wait before painting.

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[oldman2]

Here's an update and tale of woe.
I have copied most of this over from another forum where I have been chatting about this.

Tiler was pre booked to lay floor tiles the very next dayso I had to stay off the tiles for a day so still wasnt able to get the check the plaster finish till then.
Well now I have and I did somehow think I would be able once its had time to dry just give it a wipe down and paint it. No chance.
Just about every right angle requires sanding/filler to get rid of lumps depressions. The 2 walls that have units and worktops going on them are out of square and run out both vertially and horizontally, one by as much as 10mm over 2.5mtr.
I complained to the company and they are sending their estimator back Monday to take a look but as I dont know whats normally acceptable...

At the moment my 60yr old house walls are in a better state than the new ones imo. I am not sure what can be done to put right the errors but if they do anything at all its going to put me back yet another week waiting for the walls to dry before I can paint

Here is a close up of the sort of finish I have. I realise its very difficult to show defects in photo's but I will try.

First is the edging bead, not only showing through but so bad it will need filler before painting.

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Next is a corner going floor to ceiling, this was perfectly square brick to blockwork before the plasteres got at it.

Lower view

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and progressing up the wall

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The plastered wall varies from 50mm to 70mm wall to edge bead as it wanders in and out up to the ceiling.

Here is a spirit level at the line the worktop would be at, the gap behind it is near 10mm

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The wall with the window in is the worst of all and even with scribing the worktop in there are no other units above it on that wall so it will show.

Mon Nov 23

The firm's estimator turned up this morning first thing, he agreed it was unacceptable work and said the plasterer will be back later today to redo as needed.
He just arrived and has pva'd the wall and window revels, has cut some much wider than last time expalmet type beading for round the window and is setting that in carefully using a spirit level.

They also brought bonding plaster and multifinish, I have everything crossed...

5:30pm 23rd update, that one wall 2.8m x 2.4 tall with a 1.8m x 1m window in has taken 3+ bags of bonding and lots of scraping/checking. Its scratch finished for tonight and hes back tomorrow pm to finish it.
Then there is a stub wall to redo.
My extension will be a broom cupboard by the time its finished.

Tue Nov 24

I am so peeeeeed off now.

They came back today to finish the job for the 2nd time. I watched them like a hawk all the time, getting more nervous as the multi finish went on and on and on, how thick does it need to be!
I already got a barrow load of bonding on it yesterday.

Anyway much mess later they pronounced it finished and left quickly.

I cleared up...AGAIN!

Ran a finger along the beading on the sill edge and got stabbed.
Not sure how well you can see that but the snips were blunt and the bead got bent off rather than cut I think.

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How he managed to float off the wall without grinding to a halt each time he got to there I dont know.

Then I looked more carefully at the reveals, not much window left there after all that plaster.

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Its also nowhere near vertical or horizontal in the reveal when a level is put up to it.
So now I have a mini window surround with not enough meat left to rescue it by tiling square even.

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Close inspection of the beading shows the metal showing through and the base bonding plaster.

My daughter got in from school just now and asked if I wanted a tarp as there was one blowing down the road.
I went to look and its the plasterers.

Not one angle in the reveals is correct, it slopes so much front to back on the sill that I needed a 10mm spacer uner a tile to get level. Of course that gets the tiles higher than the window beading so again not acceptable.
The wall at worktop height still has near 10mm gap behind a straight edge as in the previous plastering job.


Wed Nov 25

The boss of the "specialist plastering" company that did the work visited this morning first thing, he took one look at the window wall and said its all got to come off, totally unacceptable. The plasterer will be sacked.

I suggested that as they hadnt managed to get it right twice already, what chance of third time lucky!

He said he is the boss and he will come and do the job himself, I told him I was considering instructing another plasterer but he assures me it will be done right this time.

I am caught a bit between the devil and deep blue, if he strips and redoes the job its free of cost, I just have to put up with all the mess and delays before painting.
If I dont let him then he wont give any money back so another plasterer would be full cost to me again, the mess and time problem still exists.

So I dont have much choice really, they will be here today stripping off the 2 lots of plaster....

Hope my wiring, window frame and floor tiles survive...

 

[Richard C]

Oh dear, it doesn’t seem to have gone particularly well for you does it. It’s surprising how many so called spreads can’t actually plaster, especially if your ask them to do anything other than skim sheets of PB. Don’t take me wrong, it’s not my intention to rub your nose in it but I did warn you to be very careful . With a decent sized job as yours, I think its imperative you go on personal recommendation & see an example of previous work if at all possible. I would say always go for a busy local self employed spread every time (if you can find one). The quality of their work needs to be good or word quickly gets around & they would be unlikely to survive on their own; & they may end up working for a specialist plastering firm.

On balance, I think you have to stick with who you’ve got & give the boss one last chance to get it right. I would take the day off & watch them like a hawk when they start plastering & if I didn’t like what I was seeing, chuck em off site. I’ve done this during renovations at my own property; the spreads my builder initially used were brilliant brick layers (they did all my brickwork) but totally crap at plastering. After I called a stop to another lot, I ended up in the rather silly situation where my builder was paying me to plaster my own house .

I hope it goes well for you this time, good luck & don't despair as there's nothing that can't be put right eventually; keep us informed.

 

[oldman2]

Well the guy turned up to strip the wall, put down a tarp, ply sheeting and cloths.
The plaster came off reasonably easily, some real big differences in thickness, top of the wall was around 18mm and bottom was 38mm.
Interestingly the hardwall didnt stick to my plastic cable capping so with them being careful to chop back close to my chalk marks there was no disturbance to the cabling.

The wall was carefully hardwalled yesterday and multifinished today.

The plasterer came back this afternoon and put the finish coat on the wall, it looks an awful lot better now.

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Looks like I will need to fit coving now though as where the 2nd bodge up was so thick its left a not too smooth edge on the ceiling where it was stripped back, same was on the 2 walls that edge this replaced one but I was able to damp the plaster and use a scraper on those to get it a little better. Ceiling coat was so thin I was in danger of making it worse so I didnt try too hard there.
Ran a stanley blade around the window reveal to trim off the tape from the window.
Reveal is spirit level proof now and the wall is straight at worktop level

 

[Alastairreid]

was following your saga oldman2 sorry you had so many problems! glad its all worked out for you in the end though.