Heat Pumps

[DeltaT]

Also remember KISS!! It's in the middle of Winter that all these fancy appliances go t.ts up.

A wood/multi-fuel stove is a good call as said, regardless of anything else. With the feed-in tariff a HP may be a good choice.

 

[Biggles..]

If you really want a Heat pump, go for a decent one such as Daikin Altherma, linked to a thermal store, with solar thermal and a WOODBURNER, when it's cold you will be gratefull for the input that the boiler on the woodburner would add to the thermal store if new build, Underfloor would probably be best in terms of efficiency and effectiveness

Forgive me if I'm wrong Boilerman', but did Daikin not have some problems with their gear, re-calling some HPs??

Good call about having a wee woodstove, but thermal stores/heatbanks are rubbish with HPs or solar.

Think you'll find its the ecodan thats gone bang.

as for HP's and thermal stores,all HPs if theyre HFC wont give enough heat to warm a buffer,cylinder,thermal store, or radiator.Single stage refridgerent cant achieve the temp levels before condensing.The next problem comes that below 5degC they become about 50%eff and tend to run in perm defrost,some actually use the heat stored in the buffer,cylinder etc to help in the defrost mode.

Current best solution for ASHP technology is a Sanyo Co2 unit,when combined with a ACV/Sanyo thermal store will(is the only one) easily run radiator at 65-70degC straight off. Has only an outdoor unit and no fridge pipework.

Combined with the fact that Co2 reaches the higher temp hrough a high pressure compressor and that the unit fully functions down to -15,-25 is the start of permant defrost,use trickle pressure heating to carryout the defrost without actually stopping heat intake to the store, makes it a no brainer for any decent ASHP installer.

Why fit bag of spanners when theres only one product that actually fits the bill,oh and yes the altherma does high temp,but its a specialist two stage unit(two fridge portions) but what they fail to tell you is when the standard outdoor unit goes into defrost at 5deg the internal high temp section is no use nor ornament.

 

[DeltaT]

The Sanyo ASHP is a good call, however you'll need to jag up the temperature on a thermal store/cylinder, even a tank-in-tank - immersion heater perhaps?

 

[Biggles..]

nope the unit sits easily at 65deg produced in entirity by the ASHP, anti legionella every 4 starts.

full 9KW backup immersion for total unit failure.
3KW immersion for the odd running period.

All controlled by the onbaoard control module.

the only solution that offers a true radiator/65deg c solution from an ASHP.

 

[ajrtd]

As I stated above, any thermal store/heatbank requires a high primary water temperature(75-80*C) & given that a solar system will only heat up any cylinder very slowly. It is far better at heating a standard tall slim type cylinder providing hot water directly at 50-60*C.

If you fail to understand this, please ask me & i'll 'dumb it down' for you.

I going to have to do a little guess work here I guess that when an old man with your vast experience has trouble designing a system that WILL WORK you then believe it cant. No worries, leave it to the younger men that can you're so obviously past it.

given that a solar system will only heat up any cylinder very slowly

Your point being? And what implications would that have for the design and installation of a Thermal Store or Heat Bank system? I'd love to know you may be able to convince me that I should stop installing them, it's a little late to stop the one we started today though.

I'm up your way again in late September if you need any help I can drop by and see you.

You're not BigBurner/DrDrivel/WaterSystems are you??

That from the one of the biggest drivels on this site namsag does funny you're not even close

 

[DeltaT]

Please tell me AJ, what size of Thermal store or Heatbank do you install, in relation to squ.M of solar panel? What do you recommend flat plate or evacuated tube. What KW/year are you getting from these panels? Do you favour Thermal stores over heat banks? What type of data monitors do you use on your systems & are the results published on-line on LTX format?

Lastly, are you MCS accredited?

 

[DeltaT]

Interesting lcgs, I must have a closer look at the Co2.
What is the 'real' COP for this unit mate?

 

[Biggles..]

COP 3.8

Units come as 4.5 or 9KW but are designed to be combined with max combination of 5X 9 KW units.

As for MCS accreditation,it means jack.since the demise of the lcbt phase 2,no units or manufacturers are lookin to ascertain approvals.
The grants from an allocated pot of 12million paid out on average £328 per grant therefore its hardly worth paying the £1000s to join to get nothing back.government cutbacks saw the first major saving toake was the demise of mcs as a product approval. The scheme still runs but is pointless.

The latest White paper for feed in may change things but well see.

 

[ajrtd]

Please tell me AJ, what size of Thermal store or Heatbank do you install, in relation to squ.M of solar panel? What do you recommend flat plate or evacuated tube. What KW/year are you getting from these panels? Do you favour Thermal stores over heat banks? What type of data monitors do you use on your systems & are the results published on-line on LTX format?

Lastly, are you MCS accredited?

I will size the store to suit the application. that could be anywhere from two hundred to several thousand litres.

We mostly use heatbanks with fresh water modules.

We don't install to the lowest industry standard heat exchanger area of .25m2
ours are typically.38m2

We install the system the client wants (tubes or flatties) most suited to the site requirements/conditions.
We install the Thermomax DF100's, HP200, Ritter cpc inox or AMK Solac with outputs from 630-760kwh/m2 although now that Thermomax are giving a 20 year warranty on their tubes against 15 on the Ritter and 10 on the Amk we will probably start to use Thermomax in preference of anyother.
Flatplate wise I have a really nice German collector ouptut 525kwh/m2 but we also install the Marvel panels too. Still using some Chinese kit but have very little of that left and wont be re-stocking it.

Not using anything with vbus now so cant publish to the net. A few of our customers do publish there data from their own diy installs.
Controller wise. We have switched to the new Solarlogic nice bit of kit that when it does have vbus will be even better. Having said that if a client wants a particular controller we will supply/install it.

Lastly MCS
if only you knew me yes.

 

[DeltaT]

Thanks AJ & lcgs. A very interesting read.

Oh AJ, I was just winding you up with the 'dumb-it-down' mate............

RIP MCS!! This trade is full of training/schemes/accreditations etc, that cost us bona fide companies a fortune & then they run out of steam!!

 

[ajrtd]

RIP MCS!! This trade is full of training/schemes/accreditations etc, that cost us bona fide companies a fortune & then they run out of steam!!

I hear that