*Heating the The Floor Above the Cellar -Genius or Foolish?*

[johnson1506]

Hi,

I have laminate flooring in the lounge above the cellar, -silly I know!

But I like the flooring, its easy to clean especially with a toddler.

Ive had a brainwave but before I try it I would really appreciate your feedback and tips!?

Brainwave: I would like to plumb into the existing heating pipe (from the radiator in the lounge) with heat rated speed fit/PEX pipe (series or parallel?). My plans are to coil the pipe along the floor boards between the joists so that they heat the cold floor from below?

Would I need any special equipment or is my ideas as simple as it sounds?

Thanks for your comments!

J.

 

[Softus]

But I like the flooring, its easy to clean especially with a toddler.

Do you live in Haringey?

I would like to plumb into the existing heating pipe (from the radiator in the lounge) with heat rated speed fit/PEX pipe (series or parallel?). My plans are to coil the pipe along the floor boards between the joists so that they heat the cold floor from below?[/b]

Would I need any special equipment or is my ideas as simple as it sounds?

If you're trying to install underfloor heating then this would be a bad way to do it, because:-

1. The air around the pipework would interfere with transfer of heat to the flooring.
2. You'd need to thoroughly unsulate underneath the pipework to stop heat loss into the garage.
3. You'd need a blending valve, pump, thermostat, controller, and independent flow from the boiler to make it work.

 

[johnson1506]

Thanks for your reply!

No I live in Worcestershire?

I didn't want it to be as complicated as underfloor heating, but then I was trying to avoid having to use a pump etc etc, by replacing the room radiator with the piping and then insulating the the pipes to reduce heat loss.

What gave me the idea is our bathroom. We currently have a one radiator in the bathroom and when I walk through the bathroom I can feel certain areas of the floor heating up as wast heat it being rising from the pipes under the floor (going to the radiator) and so... my ideas was born, why not purposely do this under the lounge above the cellar?

Can it not be that simple?

Ps. I am listening to your answer I just dont under stand the technicalities behind it so I am throwing questions at the idea [/b]

 

[Softus]

I live in Worcestershire?

Ah, OK; I think you're still allowed to wipe the floor with a toddler then.

I didn't want it to be as complicated as underfloor heating, but then I was trying to avoid having to use a pump etc etc, by replacing the room radiator with the piping and then insulating the the pipes to reduce heat loss.

But you want the pipes to lost heat upwards - that's the whole point of u/f heating.

What gave me the idea is our bathroom. We currently have a one radiator in the bathroom and when I walk through the bathroom I can feel certain areas of the floor heating up as wast heat it being rising from the pipes under the floor

If the flooring of a 1st floor level in a house gets warm, then no heat is wasted, because it all contributes to heating the air space, which is the objective.

...and so... my ideas was born, why not purposely do this under the lounge above the cellar?

Can it not be that simple?

No. The main issues are:-

1. The water in u/f heating pipework needs to be at a lower temperature than the water circulating through radiators.

2. You need to increase the transfer of heat from the pipework to the flooring above it.

3. You need to decrease the transfer of heat from the pipework to the garage below it.

 

[johnson1506]

I am with you about the insulation.

Not sure about your last comments re increase/decrease,and do you mean the cellar (i dont have a garage .

Erm maybe I should phrase it another way to improve my understanding: what will the negative effects be if I put the piping in series (after the radiator so I can control general room temp with thermostatic valve)???

and would you use a smaller gauge of pipe etc...

thanks again!

 

[Agile]

You do not HAVE to use a lower water temperature in the UFH.

But if you dont then the floor is likely to be damaged after a few heat/cool cycles and it could get too hot to walk on if it was being very efficient at heating!

Also not to waste heat, you will need at least 100 mm of very efficient insulation underneath.

This may help you:-

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/copper-pipes-heat-loss-d_51.html

You could always clip a pipe in the space so it does not touch anything and you might lose about 50w per m , UFH is usually 50-70 w/m² so a couple of lengths of pipe per m² would be the norm but getting the distribution even could be a problem.

Tony

 

[Softus]

Not sure about your last comments re increase/decrease,and do you mean the cellar (i dont have a garage .

Yes. I mean the cellar.

What part of the 'increase' statement don't you understand?

Erm maybe I should phrase it another way to improve my understanding: what will the negative effects be if I put the piping in series (after the radiator so I can control general room temp with thermostatic valve)???

1. You risk damaging the flooring if the water temperature is not reduced by blending.
2. The flooring needs to start heating up earlier than the radiators.
3. What is this thermostatic valve of which you write?

and would you use a smaller gauge of pipe etc...

(a) No.
(b) What do you mean by "etc."?

 

[Softus]

You do not HAVE to use a lower water temperature in the UFH.

You do not HAVE to write stupid and unhelpful comments, but you still do it.

You do not HAVE to file your limited company accounts on time, but there are consequences of not doing it.

You don't HAVE to wear a check shirt, but people would otherwise find it harder to spot dorks.

Also not to waste heat, you will need at least 100 mm of very efficient insulation underneath.

 

[johnson1506]

part of the 'increase' statement don't you understand?

I get it now.

1. You risk damaging the flooring if the water temperature is not reduced by blending.

Good point, may be I should put a gap between pipes and floor by going through the joists which should suspend the pipe?

2. The flooring needs to start heating up earlier than the radiators.

So in series after the radiator or ?

3. What is this thermostatic valve of which you write?

Im jut fitting thermostatic valves to the existing lounge radiator and was thinking that if this piping is in series with the radiator is would also control the u/f piping (in a very crude way!)?

What do you mean by "etc."?

Anything else you would recommend ie types of pipe etc

thanks!

 

[johnson1506]

You do not HAVE to use a lower water temperature in the UFH.
You do not HAVE to write stupid and unhelpful comments, but you still do it.

You do not HAVE to file your limited company accounts on time, but there are consequences of not doing it.

You don't HAVE to wear a check shirt, but people would otherwise find it harder to spot dorks.

Also not to waste heat, you will need at least 100 mm of very efficient insulation underneath.

???

 

[Softus]

You do not HAVE to use a lower water temperature in the UFH.

I didn't write that.

Also not to waste heat, you will need at least 100 mm of very efficient insulation underneath.

I didn't write that.

 

[Softus]

1. You risk damaging the flooring if the water temperature is not reduced by blending.

Good point, may be I should put a gap between pipes and floor by going through the joists which should suspend the pipe?

No. You need to do it properly.

2. The flooring needs to start heating up earlier than the radiators.

So in series after the radiator or ?

No. It needs an independent flow from the boiler, so that the u/f segment becomes a different zone.

3. What is this thermostatic valve of which you write?

Im jut fitting thermostatic valves to the existing lounge radiator and was thinking that if this piping is in series with the radiator is would also control the u/f piping (in a very crude way!)?

You might call it a crude control, I would call it lack of control.

What do you mean by "etc."?

Anything else you would recommend ie types of pipe etc

I'm not going to recommend a type of pipe, because you're dismissed/ignored all of my previous recommendations, and I think you're going to do it your own way whatever I suggest or explain.

 

[johnson1506]

I haven't dismissed any thing, but you haven't given me any alternatives.

Please could you recommend an alternative solution?

I understand that I need to do it properly, how would I go about this?

THx

 

[Softus]

Would I need any special equipment or is my ideas as simple as it sounds?

3. You'd need a blending valve, pump, thermostat, controller, and independent flow from the boiler to make it work.

You can buy all this in the form of a kit that also includes the pipe.

 

[simond]

I suggest you go shopping on Screwfix, for a JG Speedfit or Polyplumb system.

If you think you have an easier reliable solution for UFH then try it out. But if there was don't you think the industry would have been doing it already?

I know someone invented the WorkMate etc but in UFH there are certain fundamentals and your initial proposal seems to have comprehensively ignored them all.