Help re central heating problems

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Manchester
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I am looking for advice re a 25 year old system which used to be serviced by British Gas when I could afford it. The problems are many - radiators pinholing and needing regular replacement despite inhibitor, furthest radiator from pump and zone valves (in airing cupboard) staying cold after refilling, although it eventually seems to bleed itself after a few weeks each time. The upstairs radiators all get warm when the hot water alone is switched on as well as when central heating is on as well - the reason why I replaced the zone valves. I have replaced several gate valves with Pegler versions as some of those were seized open, would not close properly, or just spun round as the worm drive had sheared. The boiler is a Baxi Bermuda back boiler and there are seven radiators in the house, a mid terraced cottage. All radiators have TRVs and there is no room thermostat. There are two Honeywell zone valves, recently replaced by me, in the same position and with the same flow direction as before. I don't know if BG ever replaced these, but there is one end capped pipe indicating perhaps that the layout has been changed. I do know that BG replaced the circulator pump, because my other half was at home when the two BG men came, and she said they spent all day with much cursing and frequent phone calls back to the office (obviously not the modern laptop using type of fitter). They put the Grundfos pump in a horizontal position, with the front slotted screw nearly upright - a position with a cross through it on the leaflet that came with the pump. The flow is toward the two zone valves, but the flow arrows on both of the zone valve bodies are in the opposite direction, towards the pump. My query is this: I have a feeling that BG fitted the pump with the flow reversed, as they were not familiar with a system where pump and valves are fitted on the return side from the boiler. The pump gurgles quite bit, and because there has been air in the system, because of the installation position I imagine the bearing on the upper end of the shaft may have worn out. I have a new pump ready to fit. I would like an opinion from one of the knowledgeable people on this forum whether I should fit the pump with the flow the same way as the zone valves (I think on the return side from the boiler from my tracing of the pipes, but obviously I am no expert) or reverse the zone valves and keep the flow direction the same for the pump, but fit it in accordance with manufacturer's instructions. I have uploaded a photograph which as you can see shows that the pipework is a bit of a dog's breakfast. BTW I have looked all over the forum and can't find exactly the same problem as I have, although there are many queries about dodgy pipework, suggestions about combining feed and vent pipes at the header tank in the loft etc. Incidentally over the last couple of years I have used gallons of Sentinel cleaner, which usually effects an improvement. Any suggestions gladly received.
Chris
 
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You seem to have a catalogue of problems.

The shaft of the pump is meant to be horizontal and if BG fitted it wrongly are are responsible for its replacement as its prematurely failed.

The pump position and direction depends on how the system has been arranged and without further information I cannot advise.

Tony
 
You've got two zone valves and no room stat, i guess you have a cylinder stat?
 
Agile wasn't kidding, re. catalogue.

The first thing that needs sorting, is the pinholeing. Is the vent pipe that curves/hangs over your loft expansion tank (smallest tank) discharging water into the tank when system is on? If it is, this is introducing oxygen into the system, which will see you rapidly going through rads.

First, try turning the pump down by one position. It may stop the vent discharging, but will need turning back up if the slower speed isn't enough to make your ch system work properly.

Other causes of pumping over are partial blockages or wrong system layout. Needs sorting pronto, or could get expensive.

I looked at your album photo, and its a bit confusing. Poss. more photos needed.

Don't get too hung up about the odd rad getting airlocked on refill. It's common with these systems, and is easily cleared. I fear that your system needs professional help though.
 
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You've got two zone valves and no room stat, i guess you have a cylinder stat?
Hi Thanks for coming back on this. yes there is a cylinder stat running to the HW zone valve.
And thanks also for comments re vent. Yes, the vent pipe was discharging hot rusty water into the header tank. I have turned the pump down one notch and it seems to have stopped doing this. I did leave the settings all as BG left them though. Sorry about the photos not being clear - the pipework does not seem like any arrangement I have seen before, being a mixture of all sorts of reducers and angles and various sizes of pipe. I'll upload a couple more photos but I don't think it'll help much. The pipework at the front is a power shower pump which confuses matters.
 
. I do know that BG replaced the circulator pump, because my other half was at home when the two BG men came, and she said they spent all day with much cursing and frequent phone calls back to the office (obviously not the modern laptop using type of fitter). They put the Grundfos pump in a horizontal position, with the front slotted screw nearly upright - a position with a cross through it on the leaflet that came with the pump. Chris
Check the leaflet - the position is OK ;) . If the slot screw was dead upright - it would be wrong : I love to slag BG, but I can`t on this occasion. Just checked on Grunfos website - Pump spindle horizontal or above . Not dropping below , or dead vertical.
 
As far as I can interpret the photos the pump is installed awith the shaft at about 45 degrees.

Nor do I agree with Nigel that the shaft vertical is acceptable either. Ait collects at the top and causes the top bearing to run dry.

The pump does not look very new though.

Obviously your system is in quite a state and whilst possibly within the scope of DIY might be best managed by a professional.

Any pumping over is about as bad as a stream of oil coming out from under a car!

Tony
 
did you ever drain the gallons of sentinel cleaner?
Hi Yes I did drain the cleaner! In fact I made a loop from the feed to the expansion in the loft, added a meter to measure water pressure, bunged the feed and expansion, opened the zone valves, shut off all the rads bar one in turn, and reverse flushed the system via drain cocks on downstairs radiators in turn, firstly from front room to back kitchen radiator, and then in reverse. Black stuff was coming out for ages so it might have done some good. I made sure the pressure wasn't too high as I didn't want to worsen my problems. I still don't understand why the direction flow of the pump is opposite to that of the zone valves, although i appreciate that in those days 25 years ago it might have been one way to do it. It's just that I can't find a circuit like that on the internet. It looks to me as though the zone valves will be fighting the pressure from the pump, rather than going with the flow so to speak. Apologies to those more expert than I am - I agree I am most likely going to have to seek out a professional (probably not British Gas), but I appreciate the advice on this forum as it helps me to understand what's going on.
 
. I do know that BG replaced the circulator pump, because my other half was at home when the two BG men came, and she said they spent all day with much cursing and frequent phone calls back to the office (obviously not the modern laptop using type of fitter). They put the Grundfos pump in a horizontal position, with the front slotted screw nearly upright - a position with a cross through it on the leaflet that came with the pump. Chris
Check the leaflet - the position is OK ;) . If the slot screw was dead upright - it would be wrong : I love to slag BG, but I can`t on this occasion. Just checked on Grunfos website - Pump spindle horizontal or above . Not dropping below , or dead vertical.

Just another word on this - I've just had another look at the pump, and it's not at 45 degrees, but is more like 20 degrees from the vertical. The pictures don't show this properly. In the leaflet that came with the pump, it is much closer to the picture with a cross through it than the one where the shaft is just inclined upward from the horizontal, which is ok. So I will replace the pump and post back if that helps. Cheers and thanks for all your feedback.
Chris
 
The pump is in the right way IF the white direction markers are accurate. The vertical valve is upaside down, based on the correct direction being from the lever end to the other. I can't see the other valve properly, but that may be the same. It would be better to reverse these, but the vertical one may have been fitted backwards to facilitate access to the lever.
 
We are only discussing the orientation of the pump rotor which I thought was at about 45 degrees but we are now told is near vertical which is totally wrong. One wonders why BG fitted it like that ( if they did as it looks old ).

The actual pumping direction nobody has really commented on yet as the system seems too difficult to follow from the pictures.
 
Yes, BG did fit it like that, I believe. I would imagine they did so because since the original installation position (presumably correct) a power shower pump had been fitted directly in front of the central heating pump, making the fitting of the new central heating pump very awkward. The pump is about 15 years old. Before I totally insult BG it is possible that the plumber who fitted the power shower moved it to facilitate his installation, and BG just fitted the new pump the same way. The shower plumber was very conscientious and is long since retired now so I don't want to insult him either. My bet would be on BG given the degree of difficulty they said they had doing the job, which makes sense if they tried to do it with the power shower pump in situ. Believe me, I know only too well how awkward it is, with gate valves in inaccessible places and weird pipes going off and just end capped.

The arrows on both valve bodies point in the opposite direction from the arrow on the pump - if the valves are fitted the wrong way round would the valves still work like this, albeit not so efficiently? Or is it very much more critical? As I'm changing the pump anyway I presume I might as well turn the valves round the proper way? Thanks again for the technical advice.
Chris
 
Thanks all who contributed to giving me a better idea of what was going on with my central heating. Pretty much sorted now (touch wood).
I fitted a new pump in an upright position, and turned the zone valves the right way round, so they weren't fighting in the opposite direction of the pump flow. To fit it all in I had to redo all the pipework in the vicinity of the pump. I also found that the dhw cylinder central heating loop was "glued in" with something like Fernox LS-X (only not as good) as the joint began leaking after all the pipework was re-done. If I had known that the joint was living on borrowed time I would have been even more careful. I had to syphon the water out of the cylinder via the immersion heater aperture as there was no drain cock or nearby drain tap, and then fitted new gaskets which I had to make myself. At least now there is no air in the system, and you can hardly hear the pump, and all the radiators warm up evenly. I believe the circulator pump being wrongly fitted so that one side of the shaft ran in air (whenever the system collected any air) had contributed to my problems. Thanks once again to all who gave advice - hope nobody minds me posting this as I often find myself wondering what has happened when people post problems on these forums.
 
... hope nobody minds me posting this as I often find myself wondering what has happened when people post problems on these forums.
I certainly don't, it's nice to find out what happened in the end, and good manners towards the people who've helped you :cool:
 

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