Hot water overflow into loft tank

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Hi All

Following my last successfuly plumbing resolution (shower pump), I am getting more adventurous and hope that I can solev the next puzzle too.

I have been getting over-flow water coming from the loft tank for the past motnh or so. Yesterday I wnet up the loft to check and the tank was over-flowing with hot water coming from a pipe that went up and over the tank. IU hcek the ball valve and it seems fine although the (warm) water level is well above the ball-valve shut-off level. The water in the tank is warm (very warm) and there is a significant amount of condensation in the loft.

I guess this is not good.

Could someone explain what is causing this and what actions are needed. I have a gas bolier and it is working fine. I also notice that this over-flow only happens when the hot water is being heated (ie not at night).

Should I worry? :(

Thanks
HQ
 
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Hi hi-spec plumbing heating

There is only one small tank up in the loft (at the highest point) whic is overflowing.

I read through the thread as Ratter suggested, and also done some searching of old threads. Unfortunately it is not making too much sense just yet. This is what I can gathered;

1) Worse case - coil in HW cyclinder damaged. however, I should expect to see problems with my hot water (dirty water, mixing wiith cold water, etc). none of this is the case - hot water still runs and clean, cold too. Mixer tap doesn't show any signs of untowards.

2) Sludge blockage in the system - where/how do I try to locate this? Anyway to check it ?

Thanks
 
Firstly satisfy yourself that the ball-valve is actually shutting off, and is not letting water flow when the float is raised.

you have misunderstood (1). the hot tap water will not get dirty unless water flows from the primary circuit into the cylinder. It normally goes the other way, and F&E tanks are usually positioned lower than Cold Water tanks which means that the water in the hot taps is not contaminated like that.

To test it, tie up the ball valve in both your cold water tank and the F&E tank. See if the water level in the CW tank drops (meaning that water is flowing from the cylinder into the primary circuit)

You say that there is only one small tank in the loft, so you do not have a cold water tank up there. If this is the case, then your hot and cold taps are at mains pressure, yes? So why do you have a shower pump (re your other post)?

If you have tested that the ball valve in the F&E is not letting by, and you say that water is overflowing from the F&E, then it must be getting in there from somewhere. Tie up the ball and see if the water level drops at night when the boiler is off.

A blockage is most likely at the Tee joint where the supply from the F&E (in a 15mm pipe) joins on to the larger circulating pipes. This is usually close to the circulating pump and/or the hot water cylinder or the boiler. You can hold a strong magnet against the joint and it will be attracted to the copper pipe if a blockage of black sediment is within.

Please post a photo of the pipework where the F&E and the Vent pipe join on to the circulating pipe, and show us where they are in relation to the pump.

Please also say what speed the pump is set to; when the system first started pumping over, and when it last ran correctly.
 
Hi JohnD
Sorry to take a while to respond. Was so busy with work lately and also took a bit to figure out what to do with the photos. Plus needed some courage to go up to the loft again... :oops:

There is indeed a CW tank up there. The ball valve on this CW tank works absolutely fine (was up there testing for some time to make sure). The problem is with the small tank (F&E tank?) which is sited at the highest point (above the CW tank). The ball valve on this one works fine too. I have taken photo of the pipe that is overflowing into this tank and how it link to the rest of the system. Unfortunately I am a complete dork when it comes to plumbing so go easy on me.

This is the photo of the F&E tank in the loft, with the overflowing pipe (A). You can clearly see the condensation.

[image= F&E tank.jpg] [image= IMG_2327.jpg]

This is the pipe that overflows.

IMG_2326.JPG

This is how that pipe links into the rest of the system (C)

[image= Pipe in system.jpg]

There is some sign of blockage (via magnet test) to the joint shown (D). This runs up into the F&E tank pipe (B) above.

In terms of the pump, it is a Wilo Gold 50 model and the setting is set to 2. (I presumed you wasn't referring to the shower pump?)


So, what is the diagnosis?
 
pictures not working :(

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=99672

have you done this yet:
Tie up the ball and see if the water level drops at night when the boiler is off.

As you say there are signs of blockage, pop out to your DIY shed and invest £15 or so in a bottle of Sentinel X400 Sludge Remover.

Do you know where the drain cock is? Hopefully near a radiator at the lowest point, preferably close to an external door that you can put a hosepipe through.
 
I had this exact problem and had to cut into the 15mm pipe near the point where the cold water fill joined the system. I used a piece of curtain wire to poke the sludge (yes there was plenty there) which had obviously caused the blockage. The header tank then becomes like a radiator in the central heating system. I then attached a garden house at mains pressure to the pipe and drained the system at the same time flushing with the water. I then re-joined the pipe and put sentinel sludge remover in the system and ran it for a few weeks, drained down again and refilled and the problem did not come back. I would never have known how to do this if it had not been for a forum like this one. Here is a similar response from another forum

None of the above!
Your pipes are partially blocked with scale/crud at the point where the feed joins the system.
A magnet will stick to the pipe because it's an iron complex compound.
Sometimes you can poke a thin drain spring up the pipes, perhaps from the pump side, but often the pipe has to be excised.
The feed can be 15mm, the vent MUST be 22, and the overflow should be 3/4 = 22 ish
 
Hi JohnD

Thanks very much for the advice on how to get the photos uploaded. I followed the forum instructions by emailing them to admin, but have no idea when it will get included. Your instructions was much quikcer to follow.

Here are the photos again.

This is the photo of the F&E tank in the loft, with the overflowing pipe (A). You can clearly see the condensation.

FEtank.jpg

IMG_2327.jpg


This is the pipe that overflows.

IMG_2326.jpg


This is how that pipe links into the rest of the system (C)

Pipeinsystem.jpg


There is some sign of blockage (via magnet test) to the joint shown (D). This runs up into the F&E tank pipe (B) above.


I will tie up the ball and see what the water level is in the morning. However, you can see where the water coming from in the pic above.

Is it easy to use the Sentinel X400? What does the drain cock do and no, I don't know where it is? What should I be looking out for?

Thanks
 
couple of points


The ball cock looks rather old and corroded. If you have any doubts about it shutting off correctly, replace it with a new one.

the pipe layout doesn't look wrong , except that the vent pipe (the one overhanging the F&E tank) doesn't look high enough.

If you can cut it and join a bit more on, so the bend is higher above the tank, it will mean that greater pressure is needed to make the pumping-over happen.

You can also adjust the ball valve so that the water level is only a couple of inches above the F&E pipe exit in the bottom. This will also help.

The magnetic point you indicate is pretty well exactly where we would expect a blockage to form, it is very common.

As you have found signs of magnetic blockage, yes, add the X400 and stir it in. Lower the water level in the F&E first, by baling out into a bucket and adjusting the ball valve arm, to reduce the chance of it being wasted by running out of the overflow. Bale out any sludge in the tank, and sponge it clean.

Tie up the ball valve and turn the pump on for 10 mins with the boiler on cold. If it continues to pump over, the circulation will draw the chemical down into the system so it can do its work.

Then turn the system off and vent your radiators. They will probably have gas in them. this will also help to draw the mixture of water and chemical down from the F&E into the system.

Then go and have a look at the F&E, and if the water level has dropped below the level of the exit pipe at the bottom, untie the ball valve and let the water fill to a couple of inches above it, then bleed the rads again, then run the pump for another 10 mins and have a look at the water level.

Because you have lowered the level of water in the F&E, there is a chance it will have stoped pumping over. If not, find the pump and turn it to speed "1" or "low" and see if that stops the pumping over. Stopping the water level in the F&E rising to the overflow will stop your chemical being wasted.

By now, if the chemical is working, you should see the water going black. This is good, it is the black sediment being softened and washed away by the circulating water.

Untie the ball valve and let the system run on low pump sped for a day. If it has now stopped pumping over, increase the pump speed and let the system run normally for a week or two. The chemical will continue to soften the old sediment. Bleed the radiators whenever they seem cold on top.

You are now looking for a drain cock. it might look like

p1942710_l.jpg


If you can find a drain valve, you can draw off a bucket of water to pull the X400 down into the system before you start the pump. This is the preferred method.

if you can't find one, you will have to drain the syst (with the boiler OFF!) by turning off the valves at both ends of a downstairs rad, loosening the rad valves so water dribbles out; emptying the rad, then putting a hose on the rad valve. Don't do this over a white carpet.

You can then remove the old rad valve and replace it with one with a drain-off like

p1050790_l.jpg


After a couple of weeks of cleaning, you will have to drain out all the black water and sediment; rinse, and refill with Sentinel X100 corrosion inhibitor to reduce future corrosion.

I think we had better let you start a new thread if you have questions about draining or changing rad valves.

Are you in a position to spend an additional £100 on a Magnaclean device to trap circulating sediment? It is a fairly easy DIY plumbing job... as plumbing jobs go, and well worth doing if you have a sediment problem.

I am not a plumber, just a sensible householder

p.s. with your pipe layout, I can't see how any air in the pipes could rise out. Can you see a pipe going up, with a vent or air valve on it? Might be above the pump. Has the pump recently been replaced? It seems to be pumping downwards. the upper pump valve is obviously leaking and needs to be cleaned-up and re-fixed when the sytem is drained.
 
Wow John

Are you sure this is do-able for a normal (albeit sensible) householder? It soounds well complicated !

I will give this a try (when I have gathered enough courage).

In the meantime there is no immediate danger of anytning more serious than the overflowing pipes?
 
easy peasy, but get yourself some free leaflets on basic plumbing at your DIY shed, or borrow a DIY book from the library.

Start by baling out the F&E and adding your X400. That's easy!

The longer you leave it, the more your radiators will corrode internaly, until they start to leak. Also the sediment will get worse and you may get a total blockage, which you will not be able to cure as described here.

If you don't feel up to it, ask around friends and neighbours for a recomended local plumber.

A professional would probably cut out and renew the blocked part, and give the system a powerflush. this might cost £400 or £500 so if you can fix it yourself you will have a bit more in your Christmas Party fund.

I am beginning to worry about that pump being upside down, but with luck one of the pros on here will take a look and know at once.
 
Is the pump up side down? The lteer on the pumps "right way up" and I can't recvall whether there was dirctional arrow to indicate flow direction but I ma pretty sure I put it in correctly (it was a replacement for the original Grunfos which failed a couple of years ago).

Icidentally, there is seom sign of "leak" with white/green crust around the joint to the pump and on some of the other joints near the pump. Is this normal?

I will get the sludge cleaner and rust inhibitor this coming week adn get this sorted this coming weekend. I think I can handle this - I have found the drain cock on one of the radiator in the utility room. While I am at it I will replace the ball valve too (as yoou recommended)

Will come back and let you know how I get on.

hq
 
You didn't seal the thread with PTFE tape or plumbers mait when fitting the new pump did you! Looks like leakage from a bad thread seal to me. Get it sorted!!!
 

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