My surveyor told me that replacing lime plaster on laths with gypsum plasterboard ceilings will increase the noise transmission between floors. Putting up 2 layers of 12.5mm Soundbloc plasterboard on resilient bars will restore the noise insulation between floors. Add 100mm of acoustic mineral wool and you should get an improvement. You must use a resilient sealing compound between the edge of the ceiling and the brick walls.
How do I insulate solid walls?
- Thread starter Udhi
- Start date
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Excellent post AJROBB, Kingspan suggested K18 on battens. This is what I have changed the orders to, now. But as per installer's request, it is going on treated timber battens anchored to the wall by way of HAMMER FIXINGS.
Again, a good point re the damp on cold walls replicated by an insulated install. I have a feeling, the two spots are actually areas where damp air "settles" in the coldest parts of an entire house?
I might need to consider some kind of ventilation block perhaps....or ventilating the wooden window that lies right next to the spots.
I wish I had taken my time studying this, everything seems to be running at a cannon ball pace, now!
Just emailed CELOTEX for tech assistance, and got a very off handed response from them, in stark contrast with the KINGSPAN bods.
Can someone suggest a better cold bridge control than the CELOTEX TB3000? In the the Kingspan range? It needs to be thin as possible possibly something that can be plastered over.
Regards
Again, a good point re the damp on cold walls replicated by an insulated install. I have a feeling, the two spots are actually areas where damp air "settles" in the coldest parts of an entire house?
I might need to consider some kind of ventilation block perhaps....or ventilating the wooden window that lies right next to the spots.
I wish I had taken my time studying this, everything seems to be running at a cannon ball pace, now!
Just emailed CELOTEX for tech assistance, and got a very off handed response from them, in stark contrast with the KINGSPAN bods.
Can someone suggest a better cold bridge control than the CELOTEX TB3000? In the the Kingspan range? It needs to be thin as possible possibly something that can be plastered over.
Regards
Hi all,
Just some feedback on your advice.
The insulation has gone in: K18, 72mm insulation on 12mm board. on all external walls bar kitchen and bathroom. Insulation in roof and ceilings.
Net result is at least a 3 degree increase in house temperature. The noise is also slightly reduced.
Thanks for all your help and advice!
Prenticeboy, your idea is being considered for my parents' house, as they are halfway through rerendering the outside of the house.
Udhi
Just some feedback on your advice.
The insulation has gone in: K18, 72mm insulation on 12mm board. on all external walls bar kitchen and bathroom. Insulation in roof and ceilings.
Net result is at least a 3 degree increase in house temperature. The noise is also slightly reduced.
Thanks for all your help and advice!
Prenticeboy, your idea is being considered for my parents' house, as they are halfway through rerendering the outside of the house.
Udhi
Good to hear your project was a success Uhdi.
Heres the K18 download if you've not already seen it.
http://www.insulation.kingspan.com/uk/pdf/k18.pdf
Good luck with the parents house.
Heres the K18 download if you've not already seen it.
http://www.insulation.kingspan.com/uk/pdf/k18.pdf
Good luck with the parents house.
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Interestingly... why NOT kitchen/bathroom?
I've just bought a similar 1930s house as an FTB project. I'm knocking the kitchen and diner through to make it the main focus room of the house and want this to be uber warm and insulated. The actual kitchen area is on the outside side wall (cos I say so) so I have the added "fun" of battening at strategic positions to be able to support kitchen units. There is no external rendering on the back/side of the house (and as none of the other houses have it I guess building control probably wouldn't allow it-and that's defo not a DIY do-able job IMHO)
1. How thick should I go? Shopping around I can get K18 at £19/sqm (inc vat) for a 13.2m run pack of 60mm + 12.5mm plastboard layer. Cheaper if I buy more packs... which I'll probably need to if doing the other rooms in the house. (They'll be a lot simpler!)
2. Do I remove all the existing plaster before putting the lining in? (I'm worried about damp forming and rotting the existing plaster-how would I prevent that if I dont?) Also should I treat the exposed surface with anything or leave as is to allow moisture egress?
3. Is there anything I need to do to the battens to cope with possible damp? Treat them with any special chemicals or paints? I guess if so I can buy pre-treated eg Tanalith E? Do I sandwich some DPC between them and the wall when affixing? Or should I just go for metal battens... but then again I may be hanging kitchen units...so they need to be adequately strong
4. Do the battens have to be such that they support the K18 so the panels of it aren't touching the outer wall face? Or should they be touching/supported directly against it? Dot glued to it?
5. I want the new central heating boiler (there isnt one at moment) to go on this outside kitchen wall (for ease of plumbing in to gas and water supply)... what should I do there? I'm happy to go the steel lined drywall route if required for extra strength
Any advice appreciated!!
PPS: [Sorry to ask on an old thread... but felt didnt warrant a repost as its the same project with some bells n whistles on.]
I've just bought a similar 1930s house as an FTB project. I'm knocking the kitchen and diner through to make it the main focus room of the house and want this to be uber warm and insulated. The actual kitchen area is on the outside side wall (cos I say so) so I have the added "fun" of battening at strategic positions to be able to support kitchen units. There is no external rendering on the back/side of the house (and as none of the other houses have it I guess building control probably wouldn't allow it-and that's defo not a DIY do-able job IMHO)
1. How thick should I go? Shopping around I can get K18 at £19/sqm (inc vat) for a 13.2m run pack of 60mm + 12.5mm plastboard layer. Cheaper if I buy more packs... which I'll probably need to if doing the other rooms in the house. (They'll be a lot simpler!)
2. Do I remove all the existing plaster before putting the lining in? (I'm worried about damp forming and rotting the existing plaster-how would I prevent that if I dont?) Also should I treat the exposed surface with anything or leave as is to allow moisture egress?
3. Is there anything I need to do to the battens to cope with possible damp? Treat them with any special chemicals or paints? I guess if so I can buy pre-treated eg Tanalith E? Do I sandwich some DPC between them and the wall when affixing? Or should I just go for metal battens... but then again I may be hanging kitchen units...so they need to be adequately strong
4. Do the battens have to be such that they support the K18 so the panels of it aren't touching the outer wall face? Or should they be touching/supported directly against it? Dot glued to it?
5. I want the new central heating boiler (there isnt one at moment) to go on this outside kitchen wall (for ease of plumbing in to gas and water supply)... what should I do there? I'm happy to go the steel lined drywall route if required for extra strength
Any advice appreciated!!
PPS: [Sorry to ask on an old thread... but felt didnt warrant a repost as its the same project with some bells n whistles on.]
It's an old post but in case anyone else finds themselves here in search of advice...
As some other replies have said & as the original poster finally did do,
K18 mechanically fixed is what you should do with solid walls. K17 or any other boards on dot & dab adhesive on exterior walls can detach if damp gets into adhesive. Not much fun. Kingspan's advice is on their website for a reason! Dot & dab is appropriate for cavity walls.
Cement render alone does not totally protect against damp. It develops tiny hairline cracks which water gets thru' - one the reasons for it blowing. Breathable exterior paint eg sandtex etc - must be well applied & maintained to resist water getting thru' it & your solid walls. Natural lime render is different as it is reputedly self repairing.
With solid walls make sure your pointing is in good condition. Usually it will (and should) be natural lime mortar in solid walls, particularly stone walls - this helps control any damp in the brick / stonework.
If your planning dept are amenable & your property is suitable, exterior insulation & render is a good solution (no loss of internal space) but creates a set of it's own issues. Just because other houses don't have it doesn't mean you can't. It is still a fairly new idea that not many have done yet but the numbers are increasing & planners more aware / understanding. 30's rendered semi's are ideal. If you live in a conservation area or a lovely georgian brick terrace then the planning dept will have something to say! (internal only for you)
The thickness of board you may need is related to the thermal loss calculations required in fully spec'ed building /renovations. Depends on several interrelated things; wall construction, floor construction, type & area of windows, roof construction if single storey etc. There are statutory minimum U values to achieve (in the ideal world!). With solid walls you may be looking at circa 75mm but don't take my word for it. There are websites with useful advice. Obviously expanded polystyrene is a lot cheaper but less effective than phenolic board. The phenolic will give you the same effect but with less thickness.
If you have suspended timber floors they can be insulated between the joists if you have to replace boards as part of your renovations or can get to them from below.
If a job's worth doing it's worth doing well - this is a long life project -you will not want to be doing it again in 10 years time or kicking yourself for being a cheapskate. Heating costs have gone up by 63% in the last few years & are never going to get cheaper. Good insulation is the best thing you can do....
Hacking the plaster off (which IME in 1930's & earlier houses is often poor condition) is a very dusty, messy, tedious job. It does give you the benefit of gaining 10-20mm in room space per wall, maybe useful as you will be losing a lot with boarding. The walls are not guaranteed to be dead flat with or without plaster! You will have to adjust your battens to level as much as possible. Plastic spacers...
The point of the battens is to keep the boards off the outside walls. There is a v small benefit of the air gap in insulation.
Use Metal C studs if galvanised or Tanalith (pressure treated) timber battens but not untreated timber! Self treated timber will not be long lasting enough. I am actually suspicious of timber or metal in these potentially damp spaces but there aren't really any other options easily available. I have used once, thick plastic strips fixed with stainless screws but it was a pain. Probably still be there in 100 years time tho. No DPM / DPC required. You would have to screw through it anyway.
Battens for kitchen units are an awkward necessity in dry lining. Planning your exact wall cupboard height in advance is tricky. Also spoils your nice insulated shell. You can set them to be level with the back of the plasterboard surface, mark their locations on the face (& in your notebook)
Some detailed attention is required when butting boards together in corners - rebate / cut plaster back on one board etc. The point being to get a solid run of insulation without breaks in it. Also round window reveals - there are thinner boards available for this. Of course if you later replace your windows then this can be altered / improved to better specs. as can the window sizes (smaller to allow more insulation / less cold bridging)
Many boiler installs are done in porches / lean-to's / basements - against solid walls. Plumbers don't seem to be bothered... The 5 year old boiler that came off our basement wall was very rusty... Nothing to stop you mounting it on your dry-lining but must be v solidly fitted - boilers are heavy - full of water. Check out boiler maker websites for fitting advice.
[/b]
As some other replies have said & as the original poster finally did do,
K18 mechanically fixed is what you should do with solid walls. K17 or any other boards on dot & dab adhesive on exterior walls can detach if damp gets into adhesive. Not much fun. Kingspan's advice is on their website for a reason! Dot & dab is appropriate for cavity walls.
Cement render alone does not totally protect against damp. It develops tiny hairline cracks which water gets thru' - one the reasons for it blowing. Breathable exterior paint eg sandtex etc - must be well applied & maintained to resist water getting thru' it & your solid walls. Natural lime render is different as it is reputedly self repairing.
With solid walls make sure your pointing is in good condition. Usually it will (and should) be natural lime mortar in solid walls, particularly stone walls - this helps control any damp in the brick / stonework.
If your planning dept are amenable & your property is suitable, exterior insulation & render is a good solution (no loss of internal space) but creates a set of it's own issues. Just because other houses don't have it doesn't mean you can't. It is still a fairly new idea that not many have done yet but the numbers are increasing & planners more aware / understanding. 30's rendered semi's are ideal. If you live in a conservation area or a lovely georgian brick terrace then the planning dept will have something to say! (internal only for you)
The thickness of board you may need is related to the thermal loss calculations required in fully spec'ed building /renovations. Depends on several interrelated things; wall construction, floor construction, type & area of windows, roof construction if single storey etc. There are statutory minimum U values to achieve (in the ideal world!). With solid walls you may be looking at circa 75mm but don't take my word for it. There are websites with useful advice. Obviously expanded polystyrene is a lot cheaper but less effective than phenolic board. The phenolic will give you the same effect but with less thickness.
If you have suspended timber floors they can be insulated between the joists if you have to replace boards as part of your renovations or can get to them from below.
If a job's worth doing it's worth doing well - this is a long life project -you will not want to be doing it again in 10 years time or kicking yourself for being a cheapskate. Heating costs have gone up by 63% in the last few years & are never going to get cheaper. Good insulation is the best thing you can do....
Hacking the plaster off (which IME in 1930's & earlier houses is often poor condition) is a very dusty, messy, tedious job. It does give you the benefit of gaining 10-20mm in room space per wall, maybe useful as you will be losing a lot with boarding. The walls are not guaranteed to be dead flat with or without plaster! You will have to adjust your battens to level as much as possible. Plastic spacers...
The point of the battens is to keep the boards off the outside walls. There is a v small benefit of the air gap in insulation.
Use Metal C studs if galvanised or Tanalith (pressure treated) timber battens but not untreated timber! Self treated timber will not be long lasting enough. I am actually suspicious of timber or metal in these potentially damp spaces but there aren't really any other options easily available. I have used once, thick plastic strips fixed with stainless screws but it was a pain. Probably still be there in 100 years time tho. No DPM / DPC required. You would have to screw through it anyway.
Battens for kitchen units are an awkward necessity in dry lining. Planning your exact wall cupboard height in advance is tricky. Also spoils your nice insulated shell. You can set them to be level with the back of the plasterboard surface, mark their locations on the face (& in your notebook)
Some detailed attention is required when butting boards together in corners - rebate / cut plaster back on one board etc. The point being to get a solid run of insulation without breaks in it. Also round window reveals - there are thinner boards available for this. Of course if you later replace your windows then this can be altered / improved to better specs. as can the window sizes (smaller to allow more insulation / less cold bridging)
Many boiler installs are done in porches / lean-to's / basements - against solid walls. Plumbers don't seem to be bothered... The 5 year old boiler that came off our basement wall was very rusty... Nothing to stop you mounting it on your dry-lining but must be v solidly fitted - boilers are heavy - full of water. Check out boiler maker websites for fitting advice.
[/b]
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