How serious are these problems re new patio?

[yinhong]

Hi everyone, this is not a DIY job so I apologise upfront and understand if this thread is removed, but reading through threads on this forum I appreciate the knowledge of the members and wondered if you could help me.

We have asked a landscaper to lay a new patio for our back garden using slabs. So far he's dug up the old turf and slabs, and yesterday he laid the cement and half of the slabs.

My wife and I are complete amateurs which is why it's not a DIY project, but I'm now very concerned because of two issues:

1) I can see a hump in the middle of the patio which means that it slopes back to the house, and
2) it is only 100mm below the damp proof course, and from my basic reading it should be at least 150mm.

It is a new build house, less than 2 years old. Before and after pictures below:

View media item 62984View media item 62983

I suppose the crux of my thread is:

- are these two issues serious, and if so I would appreciate your advice on how I should go about resolving them, if it's even possible!

 

[kingandy2nd]

Has that patio been laid on the soil?!?

Assuming the patio is going to go to the edge where the turf has been removed from, then it just looks like soil and no sub base or grit which the flags have been laid on.

Judging by the fact that they haven't even bothered to align te joints it looks like shoddy work to me.

Yes it should be below the Dpm and slope away from the house.

Have a look at this page, towards the bottom where the construction diagram is:

http://www.pavingexpert.com/patio01.htm

I would be looking to get rid of those guys ASAP.

 

[ImayKnow]

...

 

[r896neo]

It looks pretty grim from here, The 'pattern' he has chosen is bizare and he has not aligned the joints as KingAndy said.

The excavation looks worryingly shallow with no sub-base.

You have clearly spent a few quid on the flags so do yourself a favour and get rid of them now or you'll probably be ripping it up and relaying in 2 years.

 

[bolst3r]

get rid of them... Wish I'd done this myself on some previous jobs but for some of us it's a difficult thing to do. Nowadays I do it myself, it takes longer but i'm happy with the job in the end.

 

[yinhong]

Thank you everyone for your replies.

Has that patio been laid on the soil?!?

Assuming the patio is going to go to the edge where the turf has been removed from, then it just looks like soil and no sub base or grit which the flags have been laid on.

He ripped up the existing grass and then just laid the cement/mortar on. Being naive (and stupid) I convinced myself that the ground seemed fairly solid and compact to my laymen's eyes, but yes he did not put any sub base on.

I would be looking to get rid of those guys ASAP.

- How should I go about doing this?
- Should I still pay him for the job, and if so how much?
- Do I then just leave the job half done and ask another contractor to come in a sort the it out?
- Will the new contractor be able to reuse the slabs that have already been laid down? How do they go about doing this?

 

[kingandy2nd]

Well a sub base isn't essential if the ground really is solid and it's only a light use patio (I.e you're not putting a jacuzzi on it), but it really depends on the soil type.

I would expect them to have done more than try to remove the grass. Removing some of the soil and compacting the ground would have given a better surface to work on, and allowed the appropriate gradient to have been applied.

Irrespective of the base, the quality of the workmanship looks poor. As has been previously said that patten is wierd and those mis aligned joint would bug me forever more if I had to look at them every day.

As for gettin rid of the guy, it all depends what you agreed for the price/contract. He may not have priced the job for a sub base.

You need to point out your concerns - incorrect levels, too high relative to dpm, poor spacing of flags and ask him to put right.

If he won't, then that's where the fun starts. Have you paid for the slabs or are they included in the price of the job?

Depending on the mix used you may be able to salvage them, or you may spend more time removing the muck that it's worth.

 

[yinhong]

I'm going to write out a list of complaints and give it to the guy and ask for a detailed written reply back as to how he's going to fix it. The pattern problem is something on my list, but I want to be more specific than "it looks weird".

What IS it supposed to look like? Is there an image that shows what it's supposed to be?

I've paid for the slabs but that's it so far. I'm 99% certain I'm going to cancel the job but I'm not sure how much, if anything, I should pay him for what he's done so far?

So far he's

- de-weeded, laid down a membrane and put shingle on the small front garden of the house, area of 4 square metres (4m x 1m)
- ripped up the turf down two sides of the back garden to create borders, and again laid down some membrane and shingle, and also installed a gravel board (8 metres long).
- and of course he's done that botched up on the patio.

I expect that at some point it'll come down to negotiation on how much I should pay for what he's done already and I want to be prepared. Any advice?

 

[kingandy2nd]

That's may maybe a day or twos work he's completed. However you need to offset that against the cost of the damage to your slabs

Try lifting up one of the slabs and cleaning the muck off it. If it cleans up easily, then happy days, but if it takes a long time to chip off the muck or it won't come off at all then you need to offset the time/cost to rectify or replace the slabs from his payment.

 

[yinhong]

The contractor came round this morning, unannounced. I relayed my concerns about the patio and he got really defensive, stormed off and said I'll be hearing from his solicitor.

I stopped him in time to hand my written letter of concerns but he immediately ripped it in half. I then asked him to reconsider his attitude so that we could try to peacefully resolve this, but then he said "I'm this close to punching you in the face," before zooming off in his truck.

In terms of what's written down, all we have is a short email from him as follows:

"please find quotation as discussed to lay slabs and take rubbish away and to supply sand and cement grass seed and top soil
Will be between £1800 £1950
Please don't hesitate to contact me with any queries"

I know, stupid and naive to agree to a job without a breakdown, but we've never done anything like this before and he was such a polite, friendly and seemingly professional guy.

I feel such an idiot.

Does anyone think he has a case? Should we be worried?

 

[xdave]

He has no case as there are legitimate problems with his standard of work, you amicably offered to allow him to rectify (which is the correct thing to do) and he refused to do so. He will not be able to take any legal action against you. However you could do so against him for the cost of replacing the damaged slabs and any 'setting back' work to restore the patioed area back to a blank canvas.

Given that the contractor has directly threatened you with violence I would pop down to your local police station and let them know his details, your address, and that you have reason to believe he may return and cause physical harm and criminal damage. I would also notify my local authority's trading standards team and community policing officer. Then alerts will go out to neighbourhood watch coordinators and people who look out for vulnerable people so if his van is spotted at an at-risk property they can check with the owners that they are not having problems. He is an aggressive bully who is obviously used to getting his own way through intimidation so you should not let that incident slide - his next customer might be an elderly person who is too scared to stand up to him. Padlock your gate and move any lose materials into your garage in case he returns to take your slabs.

In answer to your question regarding the pattern, slabs like that are cut to approximately standard sizes (e.g. 900, 600, 450, 300, etc) but the joints themselves need to be staggered as three 300 slabs may be 930 laid out, whereas a 900 slab will still only be 900 laid out so when they are next to each other they will not align properly without shrinking up the 300's joints and centering the 900 with larger joint. It is not difficult to lay them correctly but it does require a bit of forethought to get the joints to look right. You should never attempt to run any straight lines unless the slabs are cut to be a uniform size because of that - it will never look right.

It is such a shame to see what you've been left with because you've obviously spent money on some nice stone slabs. Really you should have a proper sub base but you can use subsoil if it is properly compacted (the amount excavated there is not even close to enough). 100mm at the DPC is ok for domestic unless you have serious surface water run off onto the property (75mm is the smallest I would accept, but all parties would need to agree the risks in advance). A fall towards the house though if there is no drainage to take it is unacceptable.

I would take up what has been done. You have already allowed the contractor to remedy the poor work and he has refused, so as soon as you get back from the police station try and get those slabs up. The sooner you do it the more chance you'll have of being able to recover them for reuse as weak mortar is much easier to get off stone than hard mortar. It takes around a month for it to cure to be fully hard but you need to act quickly. Fortunately the patio has not been jointed so you stand a good chance of getting them up without too much damage.

 

[kingandy2nd]

First off, if he's threatened you then you need to ring 101 and report him.

Secondly write him a letter (same as the one he ripped up) and send it to his company address recorded delivery

Advise that he has 14 days to rectify your concerns or you will declare the contract void.

 

[kingandy2nd]

I see Dave has posted as well. I would agree with his points except that you have given him a formal chance to rectify.

You need to have this aspect documented in writing in case of any future dispute there can then be no doubt you gave him an opportunity to fix.

 

[Deleted2797112]

I would just add that if it went to a Small Claim, in my experience, the judge would be likely to award the contractor the cost of the materials and labour of any undisputed work. So if you have no problem with the shingle/gravel boards, the cost of that work would be offset against any award to you for the patio.

 

[yinhong]

Thank you so much to everyone again.

I have reproduced the letter of complaint to him via email (this is how we originally contacted him).

On your advice, I have also reported him to the police. I plan to inform my local authority's trading standards team tomorrow.

You won't believe this, but I only realised tonight that he still actually has a copy of a key to my garage!! (where's the smack your own face emoticon?) We gave it to him to get the slabs out in the morning as we would be at work, and like I said earlier we completely trusted him... Anyway, I've written to request he post it back by first class post immediately, and I've informed the police of this.

In return he has left his wheelbarrow in my garden. I've told him he can pick it up at a prearranged time, but he mustn't arrive unannounced. This is a much smaller issue, but if he doesn't come to collect it how long would you wait before throwing it out? It's a very rusty, old and dirty wheelbarrow.

In answer to your question regarding the pattern, slabs like that are cut to approximately standard sizes (e.g. 900, 600, 450, 300, etc) but the joints themselves need to be staggered as three 300 slabs may be 930 laid out, whereas a 900 slab will still only be 900 laid out so when they are next to each other they will not align properly without shrinking up the 300's joints and centering the 900 with larger joint. It is not difficult to lay them correctly but it does require a bit of forethought to get the joints to look right. You should never attempt to run any straight lines unless the slabs are cut to be a uniform size because of that - it will never look right.

Thank you for the above explanation - it makes perfect sense to me now.

try and get those slabs up. The sooner you do it the more chance you'll have of being able to recover them for reuse as weak mortar is much easier to get off stone than hard mortar.

Well, actually they lift right off without any residue. I was surprised by this also, so I looked at the "mortar" more carefully and it turns out its actually a concrete mixture. Anyway, I'm pleased they lift right off and easily.

Finally, I took this picture tonight when I got home from work:

View media item 63070 View media item 63071 View media item 63072 [/img]