I really need some hot water pressure!!
- Thread starter Solaron
- Start date
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noonespecial
Blimey that is a long web address.
No that is an unvented cylinder.
I am supprised there does not seem to be any warnings on B&Q's website.
Do not go for this unless it is installed by a registered opperative for unvented systems.
Thermal stores come in different forms but have a look at following which will help you understand what they are about. These can be installed basically by anyone but of course a competant pro-plumber is best.
http://www.mcdonald-engineers.com/products/thermflow.htm
http://www.albion-online.co.uk/
No that is an unvented cylinder.
I am supprised there does not seem to be any warnings on B&Q's website.
Do not go for this unless it is installed by a registered opperative for unvented systems.
Thermal stores come in different forms but have a look at following which will help you understand what they are about. These can be installed basically by anyone but of course a competant pro-plumber is best.
http://www.mcdonald-engineers.com/products/thermflow.htm
http://www.albion-online.co.uk/
There doesn't seem to be any information about what boiler you have....
Problem with thermal stores is that they need to run at high temperature to be much use. If you have (or intend to get) a condensing boiler, it will NOT work efficiently with any realistic form of heatstore. The boiler needs a Return temperature of less than 56 degrees (ideally, considerably less) but the heatstore will be closer to 80. The result would work but the condensing boiler would hardly ever actually condense.
Fatal mismatch - but few people seem to understand this!!!
Problem with thermal stores is that they need to run at high temperature to be much use. If you have (or intend to get) a condensing boiler, it will NOT work efficiently with any realistic form of heatstore. The boiler needs a Return temperature of less than 56 degrees (ideally, considerably less) but the heatstore will be closer to 80. The result would work but the condensing boiler would hardly ever actually condense.
Fatal mismatch - but few people seem to understand this!!!
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But for hot water then your boiler has to run higher than 56 anyway, though the return at 56 will still heat cold water at the lower end of the coil. That applies to thermal stores too. There are figures published here and there which show the inefficiency isn't what some folk fear.
You're likely to pay through the nose for someone who's done the hugely difficult(not) Unvented course(like me), then you're supposed to get them serviced every year - more ££. Not that many do of course.
Solaron if you actually read the stuff on the heatweb site which I referred you to you'd see why the link you gave is not for a thermal store. Use Google and look at the manufacturers and you'll find wizards which suggest a system. It will need to be right for your space, and flow rates which your supply will let you achieve, or which your drawoffs can usefully use , bearing in mind your store size.
Thermal Stores (in Capitals) and Heat Banks are a bit different, but neither needs the discharge pipe that an Unvented Cylinder does, which can be impossible to install in some locations.
If you look at the plumbing section of the Screwfix site ("forums") you'll find a nerd who posts under "Water Systems" , who goes on interminably on a one made crusade against unvented cylinders. From time to time he demonstrates that he doesn't know one end of a spanner from the other but he posts links to all sorts of manufacturers.
DO get your water mains supply pressure and flow checked. It might seem squirty enough at the kitchen tap but that isn't good enough.
You're likely to pay through the nose for someone who's done the hugely difficult(not) Unvented course(like me), then you're supposed to get them serviced every year - more ££. Not that many do of course.
Solaron if you actually read the stuff on the heatweb site which I referred you to you'd see why the link you gave is not for a thermal store. Use Google and look at the manufacturers and you'll find wizards which suggest a system. It will need to be right for your space, and flow rates which your supply will let you achieve, or which your drawoffs can usefully use , bearing in mind your store size.
Thermal Stores (in Capitals) and Heat Banks are a bit different, but neither needs the discharge pipe that an Unvented Cylinder does, which can be impossible to install in some locations.
If you look at the plumbing section of the Screwfix site ("forums") you'll find a nerd who posts under "Water Systems" , who goes on interminably on a one made crusade against unvented cylinders. From time to time he demonstrates that he doesn't know one end of a spanner from the other but he posts links to all sorts of manufacturers.
DO get your water mains supply pressure and flow checked. It might seem squirty enough at the kitchen tap but that isn't good enough.
I'm not going to lie, i am a novice - pure and simple. I've never done any plumbing and i dont know all the terminology. I do however pick things up quickly and am starting to get a grasp of these things, so thankyou for your help so far.
This is the product i have set my mind to. After reading your advice ChrisR, i think it follows your guidance:
http://www.heatweb.com/specs/specification 5670-1.htm
I have a flow rate of approximately 20 litres per minute. i do not know how hot my boiler pumps out water but i roughly need to maintain 75 degrees in my heat store to achieve a 55 degree mains hot water. The water out of my taps are about 55 degrees.
Just to re-iterate why i'm doing this, my cylinder is far too small. it is also on ground level with the header tank about shoulder height. It is in a small cupboard with only about 50cm worth of headroom to move it up. I have an old boiler that is perfectly sound and in good working order. I have excellent mains pressure. i am in an incredibly high limescale area, ruling out electric showers. I want to be able to reduce the number of parts to again reduce the effects of limescale. I live in a bottom floor flat with no loft. I have about £1500, not including installation, to get a good shower and an efficient, modern and house price improving system.
Would anyone agree that i am making the correct choice? And does anyone have any alternatives?
Thankyou thankyou thankyou so far!
This is the product i have set my mind to. After reading your advice ChrisR, i think it follows your guidance:
http://www.heatweb.com/specs/specification 5670-1.htm
I have a flow rate of approximately 20 litres per minute. i do not know how hot my boiler pumps out water but i roughly need to maintain 75 degrees in my heat store to achieve a 55 degree mains hot water. The water out of my taps are about 55 degrees.
Just to re-iterate why i'm doing this, my cylinder is far too small. it is also on ground level with the header tank about shoulder height. It is in a small cupboard with only about 50cm worth of headroom to move it up. I have an old boiler that is perfectly sound and in good working order. I have excellent mains pressure. i am in an incredibly high limescale area, ruling out electric showers. I want to be able to reduce the number of parts to again reduce the effects of limescale. I live in a bottom floor flat with no loft. I have about £1500, not including installation, to get a good shower and an efficient, modern and house price improving system.
Would anyone agree that i am making the correct choice? And does anyone have any alternatives?
Thankyou thankyou thankyou so far!
I am surprised that Chris did not reply but he has been trekking in North Africa and perhaps he was away then.
Yes, thats a thermal store in your link!
I removed one for a friend last week. It had failed after about 10 years and was leaking along the bottom seam.
Not many people would recommend them except in exceptional circumstances. We have not seen your setup personally and I for one remain unconvinced that is necessarily the best solution.
Since its a relatively costly solution I would still advise that you take the advice of a competent local plumber. While we try to give you the best advice, without having seen the installation, there is always a distinct possibility that other relevant factors have not been taken into account.
"Water Systems" from that other forum is the only person who regularly advocates them but you will notice that he always posts anonymously and refuses to disclose his identity!
Tony Glazier
Yes, thats a thermal store in your link!
I removed one for a friend last week. It had failed after about 10 years and was leaking along the bottom seam.
Not many people would recommend them except in exceptional circumstances. We have not seen your setup personally and I for one remain unconvinced that is necessarily the best solution.
Since its a relatively costly solution I would still advise that you take the advice of a competent local plumber. While we try to give you the best advice, without having seen the installation, there is always a distinct possibility that other relevant factors have not been taken into account.
"Water Systems" from that other forum is the only person who regularly advocates them but you will notice that he always posts anonymously and refuses to disclose his identity!
Tony Glazier
Thankyou Agile.
i must admit, no one else has supported the thermal store option. In my head it seems to make alot of sense, but i have no experience in it. My uncle builds houses and does alot of standard plumbing - he's not a plumber by trade, but he knows his stuff and he thinks in principle, it should work well.
I did have 4-5 plumbers come in but none of them have gotten back to me. two suggested a new boiler, one suggested electric shower, two suggested a bigger cylinder and a pump - they seemed to think i could get the next size up cylinder. No one suggested the thermal store, but none even talked about it and i only recently found out about them.
This is frustrating!
i must admit, no one else has supported the thermal store option. In my head it seems to make alot of sense, but i have no experience in it. My uncle builds houses and does alot of standard plumbing - he's not a plumber by trade, but he knows his stuff and he thinks in principle, it should work well.
I did have 4-5 plumbers come in but none of them have gotten back to me. two suggested a new boiler, one suggested electric shower, two suggested a bigger cylinder and a pump - they seemed to think i could get the next size up cylinder. No one suggested the thermal store, but none even talked about it and i only recently found out about them.
This is frustrating!
One of their biggest disadvantages is that they do not work efficiently with condensing boilers as they work best when the stored water is at 80° C which is not an efficient flow temperature for a condensing boiler.
Tony
Tony
DIYnot Local
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